Done a transcript:
Radio 4 Today Programme 13/02/20
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000f69n
Justin Webb
Lisa Nandy
[1:19:18]
JW: Labour's candidates for the leadership held a debate last night on Newsnight. Everything from trans rights to economic policy came up. We'll be hearing from all of them in the run up to the actual voting. Balloting by the way opens next Friday, although the result isn't going to be known until April 4th. The only backbencher standing is Lisa Nandy, who's the MP for Wigan and she's here in the studio, good morning to you.
LN: Morning.
JW: Could we start with trans rights? You and Rebecca Long Bailey have both signed a new trans rights charter. It calls on Labour to expel transphobic members. Why have you signed it?
LN: Well, because for the last few years I've been horrified to see how discriminated against people are in this country who are trans and I think the debate has descended into pitting people against one another. I want to see Labour doing better than that. I have a young person in my constituency who's going through the process at the moment. It's been horrendous for her and her family. The waiting times are very long, the levels of public understanding are very, very low, she's been bullied while she's waiting to get through the gender recognition process and her family have got no support at all. Every time I see that family I just wonder if they're going to survive much longer with the lack of support that they've got and I just want her, and people like her, to know, in this contest, that they've got somebody who's prepared to go out and defend them and support them and stand up for them and will never hear anything other than compassion and decency from me.
JW: Point nine of the charter you've signed says, 'Organise and fight against transphobic organisations such as Woman's Place UK and other trans-exclusionist hate groups.' What's your evidence that Woman's Place UK is a hate group?
LN: Well, wilfully trying to go after trans people, causing offence and, um ...
JW: Causing offence?
LN: Causing offence, causing real harm. Causing harm with the words that we use, with the language that we use, with the lack of tolerance and understanding. And I've been someone that's been very, very tough about this over the course of my lifetime for a good reason, because I'm half Indian, I've experienced discrimination and hatred, my family has as well. I know how it feels and I know that it cannot be left to those who experience it to stand up against it. And that's why I signed this pledge ...
JW: Is it hatred though, for ...
LN: ... It's a very tough pledge, but it's important that we are tough on hate.
JW: Is it hatred for people in Woman's Place UK to say we want there to be, in Britain, places where people who have a Y chromosome and are anatomically male, should not be allowed to be?
LN: I think it's absolutely right to be able to have a debate about it, with decency and compassion. That isn't the debate that's been conducted over the last few years. But in terms of safe spaces, I used to work for the charity Centrepoint, we ran hostels where we would admit young people from all sorts of different backgrounds and we often came up against this issue where, remember a few years ago, we had Eritreans and Ethiopians both being placed into the same hostel, and there was an issue with those young people where two of them had been former child soldiers, fighting on different sides in that conflict. We've always had to strike the right balance to make sure that people are protected, but ...
JW: So what is the right balance?
LN: ... but if you start from the position, as I do, that trans women are women then the way that you resolve that issue is not to pit women against other women, it's to have policies in your hostels that make sure that you don't admit people who are trying to do harm to people who are already there.
JW: Right, so it's the harm but it's not the anatomical and the chromosomal thing, it's the harm done. So in other words, there's no space in Britain that you think someone who is genuinely, and regards themself as genuinely, female, even if they are - have a male body, there is no space that they should be excluded from, because of that?
LN: That's - yeah that's right, I mean, if you start from the position that trans women are women, which I do, that I accept that and I understand that, then - um - then you don't exclude women from women only spaces.
JW: And just a final point then on this, are you seriously saying that people who disagree with you should be expelled from the party? Because that's point ten of this charter you've signed: 'Support the expulsion from the Labour Party of those who express bigoted, transphobic views'?
LN: Those who express bigoted, transphobic views, not those who disagree. There are very, very live debates in this area around how you protect people, how you support people, and it's really important that those people, particularly women who've suffered domestic violence, know that we're taking this seriously, that we will be robust about making sure that there are policies in place that mean that people can't do them harm. But - but I do really think that we've got to calm this debate down. Over the last few years ...
JW: I suppose that's the point, isn't it ...
LN: ... there's been a heightening of ...
JW: ... this charter doesn't calm it down, it actually calls for people to be expelled.
LN: Well I think it does calm it down actually because I don't want anyone to be in the Labour party who is wilfully trying to do harm to other people. We've seen it in the last few years around ...
JW: Right.
LN: ... around antisemitism and ...
JW: But you would - if you were leader you would go ahead with expulsions? People would be expelled?
LN: ... we've been tough on that. We've - we should exclude people who ...
JW: Ruth Serwotka, who's a Labour - a well known Labour left person, we've had her on this programme quite often, who set up Woman's Place UK, she'd be out?
LN: We should exclude people from the Labour party who are trying to do harm to other people and that is because we're better than that. We're a compassionate party, we believe in a compassionate society and we've got to live those values.
[1:24:22]
(interview continues to a discussion about crime)