Glinner in Mail on Sunday today

[Lamahaha]

Fabulous article:

Speaking out against transgender extremists has made me the most hated man on the internet, writes Father Ted creator GRAHAM LINEHAN

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7982837/How-hated-man-internet-writes-Graham-Linehan.html

(Speaking only for myself of course)

Re telling omen they should go back to the kitchen

We are not talking about some men coming in and saying women, don't talk about that here.

We are talking about some women in a public forum wanting to have a discussion, and being told they are centring the wrong thing.

Some places are more public than others, and anyone can walk in and throw their hat into the ring. It makes sense for those places to be pretty open sorts of discussions. If you want discussions that control who is a participant and what they can talk about, it makes sense to have it in a place that sets some ground rules right from the outset. Possibly a place that is actually private, but at the least it should be something like "This is a woman only discussion, only articles by women, no non-feminist texts (even if a woman wrote them.)"

But not on an open and public forum. That's a place to get a broad spectrum of people, thinking, and ideas.

Should FWR be a place where we discuss it from all perspectives? Possibly not. But the trouble is, everything overlaps - the tentacles reach far and wide. It becomes extremely difficult to separate the tangled web out. Which is the whole purpose of course.

Some of the best discussions here - purity spirals, the thread that started out with the Douglas Murray article - are not laser focused on approved feminist topics and discussions. But they have some of the deepest implications for the whole project and our common political life.

We are talking about some women in a public forum wanting to have a discussion, and being told they are centring the wrong thing.

There are daily threads when people (since we dont know their sex) tell women they are centring the wrong thing or derail, disrupt & report to prevent the focus of protecting Women's Rights & Safeguarding.

Sweary I am really sorry about what happened to you. I hope you will stick around here if you can stick it.
If not, I wish you all the very best.
Without any knowledge of what happened, and speaking just as a randomer off the internets, I can imagine that with the visual and written wit and style and fun and the massively effective focus you brought to this issue as Man Friday (I still remember the joy of reading the Daily Mail articles about you all!) that for whatever reason some nasty fuckers around would have wanted a piece of that glory, or just wanted to shut you all up. I’m really sorry that you paid the price personally.

When I said that I am in absolute awe of the women who can get their points across in a way that hooks others in straight away, a talent of advocacy that you don’t see around much, I should also have added as examples, you and the Men Fridays.

From a campaign point of view, your pink flowery hats and dayglo mankinis are the visual we have now, against the masked arseholes on stairwells looming down over women threatening them on the opposing side of the argument. It might not mean much now, but hope you know that you’re absolute legends to us on here. When the book of all this struggle and shit is finally written, it’ll be your picture on the cover.

Amy Desir & Jane Fae interview following #ManFriday first action in response to Swim England's self id policy
19 Mar 2018

Does Gender Self-Identification Put Women at Risk? | Good Morning Britain

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=HWqA6-Q-hWw&feature=emb_logo

Mail on Sunday article By MARK WOOD and JOANI WALSH
PUBLISHED: 18 March 2018

"Feminists 'self-identify' as males... to infiltrate men-only swim session
Women hit back over proposals to make it easier for people to change gender
Amy Desir wore just trunks and pink cap to swim session at south London pool
Another woman told staff she had every right to join session because she 'identified as male'
(extract)
First transgender activists made a splash when men identifying as female invaded the women-only pond on Hampstead Heath.

Now feminists have hit back by attending a men-only swimming session in protest over proposals that would make it easier for people to change gender.

Amy Desir, 30 – one of two women to gain access to the South London pool last Friday – caused particular consternation by wearing just trunks and a pink swimming cap.

Another woman, who would only give her name as Hannah because she is afraid of reprisals from trans activists, told staff at Dulwich Leisure Centre that they had every right to join the session because they ‘identified as male’. (continues)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5514231/Feminists-self-identify-males-infiltrate-men-swim-session.html

Amy Desir & Jane Fae interview following #ManFriday first action

relevent threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374614-John-Ozimek-now-Jane-Fae-on-women-feminists-and-victims-of-pornographers

'Report from the inside' by TheHarpySings (a long-term regular member of FWR) of the 'We're Still Here' Trans Activist Conference organised by Jane Fae September 2018. Dawn Butler MP Shadow Minister for Women & Equalities was the keynote speaker.

This is an important insight into strategies used/will be used by influential activists.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

I completely agree about Man Friday. The flowery swimming caps in particularly were a touch of genius. Thank you Sweary and Amy Desir.

SpartacusLangClegicus I dont know if it was Amy or Sweary who was interviewed by James O'Brian on LBC when the scales fell from my eyes about the extent to which incredibly articulate & well informed women could be dismissed, belittled & not heard or believed.

I remember sitting listening in my kitchen filled with admiration for the woman speaking & absolutely aghast at O'Brien's response.
That was the moment that I realised how much wider & higher the barriers were to feminists when they spoke out about the loss of Women's Rights & Safeguarding.

I campaign for people to understand the problems inherent in self-ID

This.
I also make sure I tell everyone a certain, self declared, favorite internet personality demands we allow a certain self Id, self confesses AGP male with no GRC (claims they don't need one) into female spaces in as such as they are "trutrans"

I will not be kind, I will not be nice, I will not submit myself or my children to the "me man you shut up" rhetoric which is constantly pushed forward by certain men who claim to be allies.

I am sorry to see that sweary had been sacrificed in this in favour of a man who emotionally and mentally abuses women on a daily basis.

Je suis sweary
Je suis kate
Je suis DrEm

I stand with women. With that said, please do continue as it's obvious the menz feelz will always be centered and more important

Floisme There was also a ManFriday woman who staged the same action that day in (I think) Manchester. I remember that Amy & Sweary always gave credit & acknowledgement to her too as it was the Dulwich action which was reported.

Then of course there was the large number of MenFridays on a bank holiday Monday at Hampstead Heath ponds.

Daily Mail 'Tempers at boiling point as female protesters break into a men-only lido in Hampstead and leap into the pool as they claim to 'self-identify as male'... for the day'
One woman put on a bushy beard while another went swimming in a mankini
The women in Hampstead, North London, criticised gender self-identification
Police escorted the protesters out over fears they were breaching the peace
By ISABELLA FISH and JOANI WALSH

PUBLISHED: 28 May 2018
concludes:
"One man shouted: 'They aren't men!' Another said: 'This is ludicrous. If I turned up at the female-only pond and claimed to be a woman I would never get let in. This is our space and that's how it should stay.'

PC Barry Macefield of Hampstead Heath constabulary, said: 'They've been peaceful, when we've asked them to leave they've left so we've got no issues with that.

'There were some men annoyed because they felt their privacy had been invaded and some who were concerned about photography.

'They've had a chance to make their point which they have done peacefully – but you can't enter a facility designated for the opposite sex, and if this occurs with men in the women's ponds we'd deal with that too.' He added: 'The rules need clarity.'
(photo from article)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5780623/Female-protesters-break-men-lido-leap-pool.html

threads:
#ManFriday at Hampstead 'men-only' pool:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3261705-Turns-out-Hampstead-swimming-ponds-are-single-SEX-after-all

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3262380-Hampstead-Havoc-go-girls

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3309445-BBC-London-Tara-Hewitt-talking-about-Hampstead-Ladies-Pond

'women-only pool' :
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3126114-Hampstead-Heath-Womens-Pond

22 May 2019 OP 2010Equality wrote

"City of London Consultation Results - they can't get away with this
Man Friday!

The City of London consultation on “gender identity” and single-sex facilities (including Hampstead Ponds, toilets and changing rooms at running track, facilities at the Barbican etc... ) results are out .

It's bad. The policy has been adopted on the basis of the flawed survey and misreading of the equality act.

My thread here

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1130973355849461765.html

They can't get away with this!
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3592053-City-of-London-Consultation-Results-they-cant-get-away-with-this

Thanks R0 I didn't know about the Manchester event but I remember Hampstead Pool - there were some very funny photos.

I hope my memory is right about it being Manchester. Apologies in advance if Im wrong.

R0wantrees

From the link "Report from inside"
The op says:

"Apparently pre GRA 2004 there was an inter-departmental working group set up in Government to look at the issue and produce a report. Press for Change (CB’s org) wrote the report and the government basically just used that (!). This was 2000 - 2001

In the judgment you linked yesterday about the trans prisioner they mention a working group too:

However, as is made clear by the report of the Interdepartmental Working Group, these problems are far from insuperable, to the extent that the Working Group felt able to propose as one of the options full legal recognition of the new gender, subject to certain criteria and procedures.

So is it the same people and same working group? I know the two things are years apart but both mention a working group that had a part in the 2004 GRA.

I dont know sorry, but one would think at least some of the information (the MPs & Civil servants at least) would be available.

I have a vague memory of reading reference to a list of members of 'an' advisory/working group but cant recall specifics.

This 2013 Guardian article is useful context to the formation of Press For Change:
'Voices from the trans community: 'There will always be prejudice'
It's more than 50 years since the UK's first trans person was outed in the press. So how do members of the community think life has changed for them since?'
(extract)
"Christine Burns is one of a generation who vividly remembers reading about Ashley in the papers when she was a young child. (Ashley appeared in a six-week special in the News of the World: "They were one of the very few who paid me and they behaved impeccably. I was very sad when the News of the World closed," says Ashley.) The existence of someone like her in the public eye was a great comfort for Burns. In the 90s, when she was chair of the Women's Supper Club of the local Conservative party association in Cheshire, she quietly joined Press for Change. Even then, the new activists dared not be openly trans. "The thing that held us back in the 1990s campaigning was that fear of being out," admits Burns. Eventually, she came out in 1995; she jokes that she realised she was more embarrassed to be a member of the Conservative party than openly transsexual.

Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press". In popular culture, the activists became more forthcoming in their attempts to increase popular understanding of trans issues. " (continues)

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

this thread is worth reading & might provide useful background to your question.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world."

I'm shocked by this.
It's so obvious women are just a prop to validate this person's identity. Women who don't agree enjoy conflict, as if that's the only reason why a woman wouldn't want this person imprisoned with them.

There is so much to discuss in this judgement.

while she was detained in the male prison estate, the Gender Identity Clinic treating her will not approve her gender reassignment surgery until she has spent a period living "in role" as a woman within a female prison

Why couldn't they do it while he was in the male estate?
He was "living as a woman" in the male estate anyway.Why must he have to live with women, to be living "in role" as a woman?
The disregard for women is astonishing.

OncewasLangandClegtwo Absolutely.
I remember the shocks (which came in waves) when I read it & am sure all women whove read it feel the same.

Apologies for missing your post earlier on the thread.

R0wantrees

No that's OK I know the thread got busy.
Thank you for all the links, it's unbelievable and frustrating to see how they have pulled this all off.

Just catching up.

PUBLISHED: 28 May 2018
concludes:
"One man shouted: 'They aren't men!' Another said: 'This is ludicrous. If I turned up at the female-only pond and claimed to be a woman I would never get let in. This is our space and that's how it should stay.'

Man alive, it was absolute genius, wasn't it?

If it was happening today, those words would die on his lips, as he realised the implication of them.

They could just about get away with not knowing what was going on, then. They couldn't now.

Je suis sweary
Je suis kate*
Je suis DrEm*

Any time people want to stop piggybacking on the deaths at Charlie Hebdo would be good. I am very, very tired of it.
It was extremely close for me, and I am sick to fucking death of it being used for every damn thing under the sun.

So is it the same people and same working group? I know the two things are years apart but both mention a working group that had a part in the 2004 GRA.

@OncewasLangandClegtwo
I was just looking for something & came across this. Im not sure if its its the 'working group' referred to or not but clearly influential.

BettyDuMonde wrote:

"I also found 66 pages of Christine Burns (Stephen Whittle’s Press for Change co founder) complaining about trans services (2006)

ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Health/Essays_In_Trans_Healthcare.pdf

from link above, essay by Christine Burns:
'Echoes of a Bygone Age'
First Published 20th November 2004
(extract)
"The Parliamentary Forum only meets 2 or 3 times every year. Its strength, however, is that it provides a uniquely strong forum for expert stakeholders from all sides in this field.
Meetings are regularly attended by a healthy contingent of well known practitioners... people like Russell Reid, Kevan Wylie, Domenico de Ceglie and Richard Green are regulars... along
with Dr Joyce Martin, a retired GP who is also a trans woman.
Alongside them sit the leading faces in trans campaigning and support .. including Stephen Whittle, Claire McNab, Tracy Dean, people from groups such as the Gender Trust, GIRES...
and myself.
Then there are specialists in particular areas, such as equal opportunities, policing and nursing.
Last, but not least, there are the MPs who get along regularly too... with Dr Lynne Jones MP in the chair. Very often Dr Evan Harris MP manages to attend too... or sends one of his researchers.
(Evan Harris is a significant figure in this, as he was Liberal Democrat Health Spokesman until recently, when personal circumstances forced him to scale down his commitments).
To get such a broad church to agree on a very detailed document is no mean feat. It has taken literally years... and has come down to a sentence by sentence reading ordeal over the last few meetings of the forum, as all sides managed to agree forms of words to describe the detail and aspirations of trans people's care to mutual satisfaction." (continues)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3531873-Searching-for-expert-statement-re-male-prisoners-seeking-transition

Dreadful article from TRA troll CursedE in the Independent.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/graham-linehan-trans-gender-critical-conversion-therapy-newsnight-a9334321.html

Lest we forget what sort of person CursedE is, and how much they respect women, here are some reminders.

Gawd I remember that TA from yonks ago on Twitter Sunset, can't believe they have a MSM platform.

Even with huge competition the misogynistic cray-cray was particularly strong with that one.