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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Line Manager just "come out" as Non-binary

532 replies

SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 07/02/2020 18:39

My line-manager emailed everyone in the office last week to say she was non-binary and we should use they/them pro-nouns.
Today I inadvertently called her she in an email to a colleague in another office, but line-manager was copied in, plus her line-manager. Are you keeping up? Confused
My line-manager responded to the email and added at the bottom a reminder about her pro-nouns.
I do not believe in the gender identity ideology and so object to being told to speak in an unnatural and incorrect way, but what I am incandescent about is being called out in front of 2 other colleagues.
Am I over reacting?

OP posts:
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NearlyGranny · 08/02/2020 05:11

Spinning, I'd be inclined to email an apology, copying in the others you CCd, saying something like,

"I'm sorry for slipping up on your requested pronouns; I'm afraid it was force of habit combined with my total focus on the work in hand. It won't happen again."

That's fulsome enough and subtly stakes your claim on the moral high ground for having your mind on the job. After all, all of you are there to work, not to stroke each other.

SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 08/02/2020 06:18

You didn't do what you were asked in a communication that included other colleagues, and the manager corrected your error in her response. Her action was perfectly reasonable, and not something for you to be "incandescent" about.

The request has nothing to do with work, it is a personal issue of hers. To respond in a work related email with other colleagues copied in is insulting and unprofessional.

OP posts:
SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 08/02/2020 06:22

If I were in HR I'd tell you that the Equality Act is irrelevant and you should do what your Line Manager asks you to do, in accordance with your employment contract.

I am an excellent employee and do my job faultlessly. Being asked to speak grammatically incorrectly to my colleagues is not within the remit of this line-manager.
If she spent as much time on work as she spends trying to police her colleagues speech, we would be better off as an organisation.

OP posts:
SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 08/02/2020 06:30

I think this compelled speech is a form of psychological abuse.

I agree.

OP posts:
Juliette20 · 08/02/2020 06:44

I wouldn't think twice about it, just "Mm, ok" and get on with my job.

NonnyMouse1337 · 08/02/2020 06:51

I wonder how the 'I'm so kind that I'll use whatever pronouns are demanded' types would cope in their own place of work when a bunch of their colleagues come out as non-binary.... Steph is now a they, Peter is a ze, Lucy prefers to be it, Chris is usually a they, but on days when wearing a scarf then one must use she as they is gender fluid.

How would you type a quick email to your team that includes Steph, Peter, Lucy and Chris?

Would you take 20 minutes to write a 2 minute email, making absolutely sure you are being 100% kind before clicking Send? Even if the resulting text sounds gibberish and no one can understand what you are talking about or who you are referring to?

Do you maintain a spreadsheet / chart on your desk to assist you in being kind at all times?

Do you take this spreadsheet / chart with you to meetings to ensure you aren't ever unkind in person?

Are you still being 100% kind when an autistic colleague is struggling to keep all these things straight in their head considering written and spoken language can be genuinely difficult? Would you report them to HR for non-cooperation?

What happens when a new colleague joins the organisation and they are learning English as a third language? They are a refugee but making something of their new life in a new country and are thrilled to be in a new job. Like many foreign speakers of English, they tend to inadvertently use the pronoun 'he' irrespective of the sex of the person they are referring to. Would you report them to HR to ensure your 100% kindness status is maintained?

jadefinch · 08/02/2020 06:56

A friend of mine's sister works in the public sector and has been told to use they / them pronouns for her work colleague and this is how she got out of it:

She has been diagnosed with depression and has told HR she therefore is mentally ill, and battling with her brain over her instincts re plural pronouns for one person is exacerbating the mental illness. She hasn't been given the green light to 'misgender', but she's been told she therefore doesn't have to use the pronouns.

larrygrylls · 08/02/2020 07:09

You won’t win this pointless battle.

Organisations default setting is to protect their structure, so they are unlikely to undermine your boss over you. And, even if they do, she will still be your boss and look for any small mistake you might make to ‘get’ you.

If you hate it so much, look for another job. Don’t look for fairness in workplaces, if you have value move onwards and upwards.

thatmustbenigelwiththebrie · 08/02/2020 07:16

We are supposed to put our preferred pronouns in our email footer. I haven't as I think it's a load of mumbo jumbo. If they make me I am going to put "it"

SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 08/02/2020 07:38

We are supposed to put our preferred pronouns in our email footer. I haven't as I think it's a load of mumbo jumbo. If they make me I am going to put "it"

Yes, our E and D team suggest this. I have resisted but I am now trying to decide between

Pronouns: Sex based like my oppression

Pronouns: I, me, mine

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Eckhart · 08/02/2020 07:55

Seems you have a tacit agreement with her, OP, and a similar attitude to each other.

I believe her personal feeling have no relevance in the workplace.

Take a look at yourself.

GaraMedouar · 08/02/2020 07:59

I would probably respond back and cc all as you suggested 'Thanks for the reminder Angela. Going forward when addressing they I will make sure I use them preferred pronouns. I hope this is OK with they. ' which sounds ridiculous.
And then going forward I would never use pronouns again but use Angela.

Lordfrontpaw · 08/02/2020 08:00

I would use their name and they/them where it won’t completely buffer up meanings of a sentence.

I would also make it very clear to them and HR that a slip of the tongue may well happen - and this is not a hangable offence. It has to cut both ways.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/02/2020 08:01

I'd like to see an equality impact assessment done on how putting your pronouns in your email signature affects how other people treat you. Obviously it will often be obvious from someone's name which sex they are but not always. Putting in 'she/her/hers' makes it crystal clear. This case comes to mind: www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html Man and woman work side by side in customer service role. Man accidentally replies to customers using woman's sign off. Is amazed at difference in customers' responses. Man and woman swap sign offs for a week, both treated very differently by many customers. Guess which way round ...

Making it even clearer which sex a member of staff or student is will surely be a recipe for even more sexism, surely?

BusyProcrastinator · 08/02/2020 08:04

It sounds like she is a self absorbed bad manager. But if you show dissent it will look bad for you, be interpreted as aggression, possibly bullying and harassment. Do not rise to it.

You can either do what she says and show grace - this manager is likely to increasingly make herself look bad - if you can become non binary yourself. If you do the latter you will need to do it with maximum sincerity or you will be accused of bullying.

Lordfrontpaw · 08/02/2020 08:05

I was emailing a supplier (is never met or spoke to them) whose name was something like James Joyce (male and female names).

I got muddled because the email was surname.firstname@... so of course I kept writing Dear ‘Joyce’. ‘James’ never felt the need to report me to my MD or call the police.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/02/2020 08:12

you should do what your Line Manager asks you to do, in accordance with your employment contract

Wow. Surely there are some limits to what a Line Manager can demand of an employee they manage? I bet there's case law on this from employment tribunals. Compelled speech is a thorny issue.

BroomstickOfLove · 08/02/2020 08:14

I'm not keen on the way that many women take their husband's surname when they get married. But if a colleague were to get married and change her name, it would be rude and unprofessional and dismissive of her life and choices were I to refuse to call her by her chosen name, claim that it was too difficult to remember the name change, say that she was the one dragging her personal sex life into the workplace and that every time she used her new name it reinforced the idea that a woman submits to her husband and so I was justified in refusing to use her name because it undermined my own professional authority.

Lordfrontpaw · 08/02/2020 08:20

My mum always used to use my married name (sending cards etc). I never use it. So what it’s just a name - and convention is that a woman changes her name.

I am big enough to realise that I cant change to world and language to suit little old me.

I love my maiden name and now my son sometimes get mail addressed to him with his first name (my dads name) and my maiden name. That makes me smile as he never got to meet my dad.

Bananabixfloof · 08/02/2020 08:20

Thinking about it, it's weird to use sex based pronouns in a lot of situations.

I would like to fuck him" - sex based pronoun is relevant

I would like to ask him what he thinks about our manager's plans to change the office furniture" - sex isn't relevant. And who knows, maybe a lot of unconscious biases against women could be avoided if a non
sex-specific pronoun was to be used

But in your second sentence it would become
"I would like to ask they what they think about our managers plans to"

Or "I would like to ask them what they think about our managers plans"
The first is stupidly clunky the second will have people asking who?
Dont imagine only one person in the workplace will require they/them pronouns.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 08/02/2020 08:22

I see the ever so subtle threats have started. The comments that tell the OP that she’ll get into trouble if she doesn’t capitulate to this nonsense because she has to be ‘kind’ or her job may be at risk. As for that nonsense about getting into trouble if she refuses to use pronouns and only uses the twit’s name, my eyes can’t roll back any further. This discussion has obviously been noticed and now certain people are trying to use scare tactics on you OP.

By the way, as for this crap If I were in HR I'd tell you that the Equality Act is irrelevant and you should do what your Line Manager asks you to do, in accordance with your employment contract. If you were a line manager and told an employee that the Equality Act was irrelevant, you’d be the one looking for a new job.

Lordfrontpaw · 08/02/2020 08:24

I would be a bit bemused if someone did this in my office.

Pronouns are sex (the letter) based surely not gender (the envelope)?

The envelope is irrelevant - we read the letter.

Eckhart · 08/02/2020 08:25

@Lordfrontpaw I think it's just a personal preference. No need for everybody to understand.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 08/02/2020 08:30

If it's just a personal preference why can't I demand that I be addressed as her/your highness?

TARSCOUT · 08/02/2020 08:34

I don't have a clue about any of this and I am happy to be heading towards early retirement so I don't have to deal with this self obsessed, attention seeking shit.

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