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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Line Manager just "come out" as Non-binary

532 replies

SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 07/02/2020 18:39

My line-manager emailed everyone in the office last week to say she was non-binary and we should use they/them pro-nouns.
Today I inadvertently called her she in an email to a colleague in another office, but line-manager was copied in, plus her line-manager. Are you keeping up? Confused
My line-manager responded to the email and added at the bottom a reminder about her pro-nouns.
I do not believe in the gender identity ideology and so object to being told to speak in an unnatural and incorrect way, but what I am incandescent about is being called out in front of 2 other colleagues.
Am I over reacting?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
DiegoSaber · 09/02/2020 13:17

Ok so we’ve established that some people’s demands about how they are spoken about are ok, and some people’s aren't and it depends on the goodness of the person; we will change our language if the nice person wants to compel us to, but not if the bad person wants to compel our language

Yes, we've established that some people are happy to do things for other people if they like and/or respect them, more than they are willing to do things for people they don't like and/or respect. Is that such a crazy idea

So that leads to two follow up questions:

The answer to both questions is it's up to you.

R0wantrees · 09/02/2020 13:35

M K Fain's article last year describes how she went from living with three politically concerned women in 2018 to "one year later, all three of them identify as “non-binary” — no longer a woman. "

'Non-Binary Is the New “Not Like Other Girls,” and it’s Deeply Rooted in Misogyny'

concludes:
"Non-binary women are a testament to the great pain of being a woman, and the desperate need many of us have to find an escape. At the same time, women who claim to be non-binary throw all other women and girls under the bus. The claim that we are privileged for identifying with the sex “assigned to us at birth” misses the inherent violence in being a female under patriarchy.

In some countries, 70% of women have experienced sexual or physical violence from an intimate partner. 137 women are killed every day by a member of their own family. At least 200 million women and girls alive today have experienced genital mutilation, mostly before the age of five. This is why feminists argue for sex-based rights for women and girls.

Those who are the most non-conforming, no matter how they identify, will face oppression for transgressing social norms. Women are especially likely to be targeted for violence and discrimination based on gender non-conformity. This is true regardless of how the woman identifies, since the attacker can not know the internal “gender identity” of the woman before the prejudice occurs.

The uncomfortable truth is this: saying you are “not like other girls” is not an identity, it’s misogyny. Non-binary-identifying women like to claim an extra degree of oppression over women who they call “cis,” a term which implies that certain women are complicit in their own oppression. But we are not privileged for maintaining an understanding of the basis of our oppression; you are privileged if you believe you can escape it."
medium.com/4th-wave-feminism/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny-7a7e5ec539ba

OldCrone · 09/02/2020 13:35

They don't want to be men, as such, but they are deeply uncomfortable with their emerging sexuality and the demands of gendered expectations as they relate to girls and women.

What seems bizarre is that instead of rejecting the idea of 'gender', they seem to accept that it must exist, but that they don't want to conform to gender stereotypes. They don't seem to have understood that it's possible to just reject gender altogether.

Eckhart · 09/02/2020 13:38

So many assumptions are being made on this thread about people's personal choices and decisions, and criticisms of a whole minority are being based upon those assumptions.
I would have thought that feminists of all people would understand why this is not ok.

Teateaandmoretea · 09/02/2020 13:39

I am deeply uncomfortable with gender expectations as they relate to girls and women 🤷🏻‍♀️. As are most of mumsnet.

OldCrone · 09/02/2020 13:47

So many assumptions are being made on this thread about people's personal choices and decisions, and criticisms of a whole minority are being based upon those assumptions.

What assumptions? And they're not just personal choices and decisions when they have such a profound effect on everyone else.

Eckhart · 09/02/2020 13:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

wellbehavedwomen · 09/02/2020 13:56

It's not a personal decision when you start policing other people's (wholly inoffensive) speech. It's anything but, in fact.

This is not a minority. It's a belief system. One not everyone shares.

Some believe that everyone has an innate gender identity, which may not match their sex (if they believe in sex at all, of course) or an absence thereof.

Others believe that women are oppressed by sex, and gender is how they are oppressed. Therefore elevating gender to some supreme importance in this way is to entrench women's oppression, and support it.

Those are directly colliding beliefs, and to insist only one has merit or value is discriminatory. Especially as the feminist belief tends to be held by women, and the argument is that genderism contributes to their oppression. So it's seeking to enforce a belief system in a manner that discriminates against a protected group.

OldCrone · 09/02/2020 14:00

I already have Eckhart. I saw speculation about a nonsensical ideology. What do you think were the 'assumptions'?

Bananabixfloof · 09/02/2020 14:03

What has absence got to do with it, Charlie? Surely people should be referred to in the same terms regardless of who is present
Er the whole thing is about how one refers to people who are not in fact there at that time. Cos if they are there you say their name or you. That's compelled speech.

Oh and FWIW, since the discussion was about doing it out of respect and not to offend somebody, the Trump question is easy to answer: I wouldn't do it for him because I have no respect for him and would be overjoyed to offend him
Right so it's down to who one wants to offend? Well I'm a grumpy ass bitch so everyone.

DiegoSaber · 09/02/2020 14:07

Right so it's down to who one wants to offend? Well I'm a grumpy ass bitch so everyone

Fair enough. Your choice!

Eckhart · 09/02/2020 14:13

I suspect we are referring to the same things, old crone, and interpreting them differently.

Bananabixfloof · 09/02/2020 14:16

Fair enough. Your choice
But it's not a choice really when I am at risk of losing my job or even arrested.
This is not hyperbole, these have already happened.

Eckhart · 09/02/2020 14:17

Banana is a person 'present' in a conversation when they are party to an email thread that mentions them? This is the reality of the OP.

Bananabixfloof · 09/02/2020 14:17

Oh and my pronouns are I, me, mine
So can you remember that next time you reply to me thanks.

Eckhart · 09/02/2020 14:18

It is hyperbole in this context. OP has not been threatened with anything, or even reprimanded. She was simply reminded of a preference.

R0wantrees · 09/02/2020 14:20

Should people change their conjugation of verbs too as a mark of kindness/respect/compliance or just pronoun use?

R0wantrees · 09/02/2020 14:21

It is hyperbole in this context. OP has not been threatened with anything, or even reprimanded. She was simply reminded of a preference.

One must always be mindful of power dynamics.

Eckhart · 09/02/2020 14:22

One must always be mindful of hyperbole!

Bananabixfloof · 09/02/2020 14:30

One must always be mindful of hyperbole
One has already forgotten my pronouns

Eckhart · 09/02/2020 14:32

That's because it wasn't about you.

R0wantrees · 09/02/2020 14:32

hyperbole

noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

Hmm
Justhadathought · 09/02/2020 14:34

*So many assumptions are being made on this thread about people's personal choices and decisions, and criticisms of a whole minority are being based upon those assumptions.I would have thought that feminists of all people would understand why this is not ok8

We are talking generalised theories and ideas/ideology, rather than about specific individuals.

Eckhart · 09/02/2020 14:36

Your point, R0wan?

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