Bearded trans woman beaten in Oregon after using women's bathroom, beater charged with hate crime

[Durgasarrow]

Lauren Jackson, a homeless trans woman who used a woman's bathroom in a state park, was beaten by an Idaho man after his wife complained that Jackson's presence made her uncomfortable. I think we can all agree that an assault charge is reasonable. Is it reasonable to call this a hate crime?

twitter.com/CNN/status/1223340439081824263

The law seems to have supported this fellow in using the women's toilets.

I think it's a bad law. But people much of the time take their lead about what ought to happen, what is right, from what the law says. Maybe especially if they are lacking somewhat in capacity.

In fact I'd say that is a reason that both the law and social custom should be really clear about this, because not only is it detrimental to people like the women who'd like to feel their private spaces are respected, but because there are people who are vulnerable to bad decision making if they don't have clear guidance.

There really isn't anything we know one way or the other to suggest that this fellow felt "entitled" any more than anyone else feels entitled to do what the law says they can.

Are they more vulnerable than a woman using a sex exclusive place for privacy discovering a male is in their protected space.

The point of female toilets is to protect women. Its literally their sole purpose, to protect women and childrens vulnerability!

Perhaps we should all have to start pissing and shitting in fields and open spaces as the poor women in india do so that male bodies have free access unchallenged to womens private spaces?

So now I'm reported and deleted!

Who, in the interests of hearing honest open womens worries is doing this?

I'm wondering, seriously MN, at the point of having 'feminist' discussion when you delete statements that are supportive of upholding womens rights?

Crime surely.
Hate crime - in real terms hard to tell, in an environment where "you are a man" is deemed transphobia.

It's cry wolf again. The man may indeed have been transphobic and expressed that; but while we can't tell transphobia apart from simple recognition of sex, I am treating any accusations of transphobia and "hate" with a huge pinch of salt. This TRA narrative does real damage to the trans community.

Please.do me courtesy MN of an explanation of your deletion of one of my posts?

The thread has moved very quickly meaning I might have missed it being deleted, so please do give me an opportunity to understand why you've done this and consider whether it's reasonable.

ToT, you have to email them for an explanation. And I'd suggest doing so quickly, in order not to amass multiple deletions before knowing why.

🤷🏼‍♀️

No, they state they email, but I will anyway thank you, as I know they don't always.

They didn't email me about my most recent deletion either, I only knew because someone else told me about it.

There's no excuse for the violence. None. That kind of explosive violence is exactly why women don't want men in their bathrooms.

Our bathrooms are now playgrounds for men, validation stations, battlegrounds. Just look at all the armed selfies taken by trans people and posted online.

We just want to use the bathroom. The people who have appropriated our spaces seem to want to do so so much more.

I'm not saying they should have used that space because they were vulnerable. Obviously using that space made everyone in it more vulnerable, not less. All I'm saying is that 1) their decision to use a toilet where they obviously didn't pass should be understood in the context of them quite possibly lacking the capacity to make a better judgement call and 2) their appearance should be understood in the context of them being homeless and the resources available to them. That's all.

Again, I don't like this whole 'passing' thing. Its all very disguise-like, and others judging whether its working or not, like getting away with wearing a wig (maybe women with hair loss due to illness or male baldness, whatever reason).

Its horrible.

I don't think thats what its about atall.

Sorry, I did misunderstand what you wrote about vulnerability. I didn't see how it came into the discussion really, as the sex specific toilets are there to protect female and child vulnerability.

Just because Lauren is homeless does not mean they lack self awareness. Homeless does not equate with likely to be insane to the point of not aware of their male reality. There is nothing to suggest this is the case. Homeless does not mean crazy. Destitute is not insane. How offensive of you!

Whether an xy man passes well as a female or not is neither here nor there. Woman is not a good costume. Woman is not nails and make up. Woman is not hair or pretty dresses. A man cannot become a woman.

Woman is born xx. Women can be dischevelled, wear jeans and tees, never do her hair or nails. Women can be butch. They are still women.

That said I'm very hopeful they recover fully and am very sad for them that this happened.

Whether an xy man passes well as a female or not is neither here nor there.

This. And if we allow the 'passing' argument to determine whether men get to use women's facilities we are absolutely screwed. The only response we are left with in the face of this persistent undermining of our single-sex spaces is the absolutist one. No men allowed, regardless.

This is the rule used by some sadly.

A prisoner found guilty of murder secured in the highest security male prison in the uk, was afforded protections from other inmates because they feared rape. It wasn't clear whether they meant that because they wanted to be viewed as a woman men would want to have sex with them, forcibly, that was my interpretation of it, in the absence of any other explanation tbh.

The prisoner wore their own, non-gendered, clothes, but had grown long hair and nails. Maybe theybfeot this made them vulnerable to rape idk, but the prisoner was carefully treated separately to everyone else in there and give ven privileges such as roaming free around the prison when other cellmates were all locked up normally during those hours. This requires costly additional security measures.

They got out and womens hostels would not accept them as a result of them 'not passing' sufficiently well as female.

What difference does this make? I've known men that could carry off as female at a fancy dress party. As in, seen them dressed as such for a party but was not any leap to see how they could do this in reality, depends on the physique combined with voice and mannerisms.

Some that have high voices and more typically female gendered mannerisms can still be and want to remain very much male happily. Its just not feasible as a reason.

On the basis of 'passing' which is horrible, I think very few would actually be accepted as actually female within an all woman environment.

OK, clearly I'm not expressing myself very well. Obviously I'm not saying that being homeless means that they're insane, I'm saying that both homelessness and identifying as trans are correlated with comorbid mental health conditions. Since this person is both homeless and trans it seems likely to me, or at the very least possible, that this person is experiencing a mental health crisis, or possibly some other issues, that would impair judgement. A trans identity is not the product of a healthy mind, and in the context of additional vulnerability I thought the comments suggesting they used poor judgement and should have realised that being in the female bathroom made them less safe, didn't acknowledge that context.

Does this mean that any man can enter female spaces but if challenged can declare ‘I identify as female’??

Well sadly it seems to be going that way

I do not condone the attack on Lauren in any way and the attacker should be dealt with appropriately.

Should Lauren have been using the women's facilities? Absolutely not under any circumstances.

Maybe they didn't acknowledge that because it wasn't applicable to this particular case?

A high correlation cannot suppose this is the case, just increased risk chance of it existing.

Like you say, theres the possibility of co-morbid health conditions.

This was not reported afaik; surely there could be many reasons? None were given as to why homeless and male bodied he felt entitled, or simply wanted, to get into a female only space.

I cant imagine a situation where a woman would want to do the same to a mens loo, other than very evident emergency, which men wouldn't presumably have issue with, or being in something like a nightclub situation, few drinks, desperate to wee, but always massive queue for the females, but you would have to be very desperate and about to wet yourself I think!

None of us know how Lauren presented on that day. It's arguable either way, and none of us know.

But ... it doesn't bloody matter. Lauren can present as Lauren wishes but Lauren absolutely should not be using women's spaces.

And, as previously stated, it is completely unacceptable that Lauren was attacked

Except that clearly, in Oregon the point of female toilets is not to protect women from males, since they are allowed in. The law being what it is, people will do what the law says they can. Their sense of the meaning of separate toilets comes out of the legal framework.

As for this man being vulnerable and less able to make good decisions, no, we don't know that. We don't know that he isn't either. He does have some other risk factors that are suggestive.

But I think the reason people have pointed this out is that several people were making rather negative assumptions about this person's state of mind, that he must be intending to intimidate, he must know that women's toilets are not for men, etc. Well, no. It is not clear that is where he is coming from, there are other very possible scenarios that would account for his choices. Including that he is doing what he understands the law to say, or that he has a beard because he can't afford a razor.

I don't understand the point in having toilets for women if men feel they are needing to comply with the law by entering female designated spaces (which are not female designated spaces).

Its all very odd, and we have no reason to believe Lauren acted out of insanity in entering the female toilets, or anything else, but the obvious thing was that these were female facilities.

Or were they not, were they mixed sex?

How did it come to the point where women are being forced to define what a woman is and explain why we are different to men and why single sex things exist?

How have women ended up on the back foot here.

A person used the toilets that were legally correct according to their identity (whether that be right or wrong).

Said person did not harass, harm or even communicate with anyone else within the facility.

Said person was brutally attacked an hour later for using the facility.

The issue lies with the perpetrator who committed the attack, not the receiver of Male violence.

Another issue lies with the fact that lawmakers have inflicted policies with regards to toilets, without any real thought or attention on the threat this could impose on several sets of people.

The issue does not lye with Lauren’s appearance, their ‘intent’ (which was clearly the same as anyone else using the toilet) or their perceived motives as imagined in your head.

As the facts present without added emotion - Lauren is a victim in this horrible situation, of both policy and Male violence and some of the very clear victim blaming and virtue signalling on this thread is frankly unacceptable.

Play the game not the player.

Lauren is a victim of a horrific assault and remains blameless for that assault.

For what reason does this have to be repeated and repeated ad nauseum?

Its a female toilet, yes, why have a female tpilet apparently not for females, just take the sign off and let everyone in.

The law is an ass, particularly in this, that muchbis clear.

....but, its still wrong for male bodies to help themselves to female spaces with complete disregard for others.

It does not deserve any violent consequence, but nevertheless must stop. Male bodies need to appreciate women exist and want privacy from male bodies.

Its so simple. Couldn't be simpler.