Bearded trans woman beaten in Oregon after using women's bathroom, beater charged with hate crime

[Durgasarrow]

Lauren Jackson, a homeless trans woman who used a woman's bathroom in a state park, was beaten by an Idaho man after his wife complained that Jackson's presence made her uncomfortable. I think we can all agree that an assault charge is reasonable. Is it reasonable to call this a hate crime?

twitter.com/CNN/status/1223340439081824263

Some homeless women have to use parks and campgrounds. Not very fair on them to have to face this level of terror and fear when that's the only space they have to use the damn bathroom.

Durgasarrow I understand your point now, thank you

The assault did not occur in the restroom.

Why can’t people read the actual story.

It happened later, in a public place, when a woman pointed the person out to her husband.

Third spaces are the answer. if this person was in the third space, they would indisputably had the right to be there, regardless of gender ID, sex etc.

Public place meaning the campground, near the bathroom. Aka a homeless person's front room.

Yes I know , my response to someone imagining being in the ladies’ whilst the assault occurred

I don’t see why someone of that appearance (seemingly a typical white adult male) would face elevated risk in the men’s restroom, hence they should have used it. Wtf does inner gendery feelings have to do with it.

The assault was categorically wrong though, and it’s importance to reiterate that.

Don't condone the violence, and is entirely unrelated to removing a male body from a female facility, and telling them to stay out and use male spaces.

They decided one day they were entitled to invade womens privacy and invade a female only space, yet that key fact, which isn't viewed as a hate crime, as are none of the other actions of hate against women, has been totally ignored!

Just because they say its not, doesn't mean it isn't.

Its certainly not giving a shit about women, that much is clear, because that woman won't be the only woman to have complained to others whenever they've found a male body invading their female only space

If a man goes into a women's toilet what does that say about that mans intent?

I think you’ve got to be very careful not to create a strawman here. In this case, the individual entered the toilet, used the facility and left. Without harassing, attacking or even speaking to the woman in there. Therefore, the logical ‘intent’ is that they entered the toilet to... use the toilet.

There is no justification in this case.

The issue of which facilities do need to be addressed at the route but I believe legally, the individual was in the correct toilet in that state.

Which rather points to the fact that laws that state that an individual can decide they identify as a woman one week and use women's facilities the next are deeply flawed and should be changed.

No, you've changed my words to suit your rhetoric there.

This person, to all intents and purposes everyone on the street would call a man, and what reason could they have not to, walked into an exclusively female space.

I'm not 'doing' anything, I'm being genuine and open and honest.

Are you telling me that we are all supposed to mystically know someone has decided to themselves that they are a woman? Which is a falsehood, even if they want to try to be like one, which is fine by me, by the way.

I don't care who tries to be anything else, so long as they don't bring harm to others in the process.

If I want to try to live as I perceive any man to live, thats up to me, but because I'm not a man, I wouldn't dream of expecting to crash male.private spaces. Those two things are worlds apart, even if some pretend they are not.

I, and many others, don't want a penis in a space for vulvas.

What would I be wanting in a male toilet?

I did used to put long towels on my head when I was small, with a short hair style, but I never wwnt to the hairdresser with it to demand they cut my hair, which wouldnt have caused any harm to anyone. Nor when trying on, and clattering around in, my mother's high heels did I presume I would be legally eligible to vote, or buy a house, no matter how quickly I wanted to grow up.

They were just facts I had to face, I couldn't be bigger, quicker, or have long hair, or pee like my brothers for that matter, or masturbate like them. All I could do is try, but not cause harm in the process.

I am being genuine, honest and open here, I simply see them all as distinctly different in reality, despite being happy to watch my own children play with high heels, or dress androgynously, play at being the other, opposite, sex.

This is certainly not about creating a straw man or anything else. Unless I am misunderstanding your meaning here.

I don't know anything about the law in this case (although I mostly agree with Barracker that the man would probably have attacked anyone he read as male who made his wife uncomfortable in the bathroom - including transwomen, men without trans identities, and passing transmen - rather than specifically just targeting non passing transwomen). I do want to discuss the comments about this TW being non passing/ bearded though. We all know that even actual women struggle to maintain a feminine appearance during poverty/ homelessness and we would never expect that of them. But a homeless women who can't practise self care still looks female, because she is in fact female. Obviously for a TW to pass they need huge amounts of extremely expensive surgery and constant grooming. For a homeless transwomen, passing - or even adopting any feminine appearance norms - may well be impossible. Alex Drummond having a beard is obviously a deliberate choice to be edgy and IMO Drummond is a grade A twat who gets off on making women feel unsafe. But this person doesn't have a beard because they're making an edgy political statement - they have one because they're a homeless male. I'm definitely not saying they should use the female facilities, it's very clear that third spaces are the answer) but I am uncomfortable with the comments about their appearance, as if this person has deliberately made no effort to try and pass. We don't know how they'd chose to present if they had the resources, so I don't think it's fair to make any assumptions about the sincerity of their identity based on their appearance. Obviously the fact that they look 100% male is relevant to the attack, which was abhorrent in every regard, but I don't think we can infer anything about their motivations/ trans status because of their appearance. For all we know the only difference between this person and someone like Blair White is money.

I think the idea is that women turn a blind eye to whoever is in there,

And if anything bad happens they can report afterwards.

which is not really great for us but rust the message from all sides including lots of UK politicians

Meanwhile men can do whatever they want and the low grade stuff has no comeback eg staring following asking inappropriate questions and so on like teen girls if they need a tampon and so on

What concerns me is why someone who is male, no matter what they want to be demands and feels entitled enough to enter the opposite sex facility.

A male who feels its their right, even though its an exclusively female space, no ask, no legislation, jist walk right on in on other females, completely give zero fucks about any alarm they may experience, about any accidental intimate exposure that might have resulted, I mean its just all so wrong and walks right over women and children.

Says that person (male or female) doesn't give a shit about others (male or female).

In this case, I can't see where it would ever be ok for the victim to have suffered such abuse (which happens as an everyday occurrence to women, and there would be no newspaper space left if it was all reported like this), but neither can I ever see why women, or other men should have to have their private spaces invaded.

It shouldn't ever have to be a case of does someone look the part, thats awful. There aren't even male facilities in a womens toilet.

Mens toilets actually hum, even the worst state female loos I've visited have never smelt like many male facilities I've walked passed. Why should I have to smell male smells in a female facility. Why should women have to avoid female specific spaces because they are being used by male bodied people who evidently don't care about female privacy or harm.

ByGrabthars I think the point being made about the victim’s appearance is that if Lauren had used the men’s no one would have had any idea that Lauren was trans so would not be any more at risk of violence than any other man.

Excellent point cuckoo and exactly the point.

Btw I am in no way victim blaming here - the perpetrator is clearly a risk to public safety.

Yes thats certainly true Cuckoo, but usually when theres a post about a bearded TW it's in the context of people like Drummond and comments like "they haven't even bothered to have a shave" are justified. But it felt like a few of the comments on this thread have come a bit close to that sentiment and IMO, on account of the fact they're homeless and probably can't shave, it's not justified. It's relevant that they have a beard for the reasons you've said, but a few of the comments felt like they went beyond that and made judgements that were unwarranted.

I also think its worth remembering that a lot of TW have significant comorbid mental health problems, and a homeless TW perhaps doubly so. Now, personally that would make me feel more intimidated to find them in a single sex space (even if the law entitled them to be there) so I empathise with the woman who was inintially made uncomfortable. But it may also explain why this person made a bad judgement by not using the bathroom they passed into. It's possible that this TW has more significant issues than we know about that are driving the trans identity. My point is that I don't think we can necessarily apply the same ideas of motivation and capacity to them that we would other TW "not passing" in the bathroom. For me the fact that they're homeless makes it much more complicated.

God why does the app always destroy my paragraphs?! Sorry for the unintended wall of text.

Mental illness does not entitle anyone into opposite sex spaces.

From the information, its not clear the intention, whats clear is that Lauren wrongly entered a male toilet, upsetting a woman sufficiently that she passed her worries to her partner who grossly overeacted causing awful unlawful harm.

You did two paras?

I dont personally see what you're saying about people commenting on passability.

Its irrelevant. Male body, exclusively female space.

Although that is the basis on which some are given access to refuge, on whether they are sufficiently 'female passing'. Crock.

No one asks the question--does it do any harm to women to have to distinguish between being alone with an innocent trans woman or being cornered by a dangerous man who is deliberately violating social norms to enter a protected woman's space to provoke, humiliate, or physically harm women?

Look I agree with what you're saying, they shouldn't have been in there, and no, mental illness isn't an excuse but it might be an explanation. My point is simply that this person is clearly very vulnerable and on this occasion it seems that their trans identity has in fact made them more vulnerable (as opposed to the usual bogus "most oppressed" narrative). I personally feel inclined to treat this situation with more nuance and understanding than I would if it were a TW who hadn't attempted to pass as a political statement. Not that violence against such a person would be justified, but there would be an element of "what did you think would happen?" about it. It just felt like a few posts had also come a bit close to that sentiment and IMO it isn't justified in this case because of how vulnerable the victim already was.

Indeed, Durgas. The whole point is that women can tell that sotmeone is male, but can't read their mind and determine why they've chosen to enter a women's space. In the current climate this means that on top of the discomfort and potential fear caused by having a male adult in women's spaces we also have the added burden of being expected to do something impossible (figure out why they're there and if they mean us harm), and pretty much any decision we make we can and probably will be blamed for.

This is not a reasonable situation and the constant escalation in terms of how wide open the category of male humans we're supposed to passively accept the presence of on the chance that they might have what are regarded by some as legitimate reasons for being in those spaces is making it progressively worse.