Keir Starmer webchat

[LangClegsOpinionIsNoted]

Can we work together to create a question that includes as many key points as possible, so that we don't get locked out of the discussion as we did on the Jess Phillips one?

Jess ignored my "what is your definition of woman?" question, I don't know if KS would dare answer it either.

I think (hope!) that may be a particular sentence he may to come to regret, with hindsight.

It does sum the whole thing up very well for us, doesn't it, sadly.

I'm more and more convinced we just need to give up trying with labour. They are in the electoral wilderness, they won't be in power for at least a other decade. KS, or anybody else for that matter, can't say anything other than "TWAW" and "TRAHR" without getting slaughtered by their own party

Absolutely......this is going to require time......and the Labour party is hell bent on ensuring that they will have plenty of that.

As soon as the Elephant In The Room has to be acknowledged, they all glaze over and start emitting some factory settings mode of pre programmed words, and then immediately close the discussion. Most Oppressed. TRAHR. Most Discriminated Against Ever. Heated on Both Sides. Error. Please Try Again Later. This Politician Will Close Down In 5, 4, 3 …

^^ this

So, so true.

But the more of us who put our heads above the parapet, the more we raise awareness, the more challenges such as Maya’s bring this into the public domain. I’m disappointed he parroted the hr stuff. But he would be slaughtered by his own party if he said anything other.
I’m all for repealing the GRA completely. He’s a lawyer, he must see the conflation it causes. It is unnecessary legislation.
But I think he is our best chance.

this is a group of people who have been subjected to incredible abuse and discrimination for a very long time
(exact nature of which is unsubstantiated, but based upon some recent chats he's had).

Versus

2 documented killed every week in the UK, which he acknowledges has been a running statistic for years and years.

Which one of these cohorts is getting their concerns about their rights in law deleted/overruled/shushed? I mean COME ON!

He hid his legal expertise and intelligence well. He has a thorough understanding of human rights legislation and knows TRAHR is just a lobbying slogan.

Thank you for getting that screenshot LangClegsInSpace, I was kicking myself for not getting one.

He hid his legal expertise and intelligence well.

Yeah, sadly he does this a lot. When he was interviewed as DPP he would give precise answers and be honest and accountable about failures.

Thanks you @Redshoeblueshoe although reading back I think human rights apply to everyone in the country, not just the county

I'm a Labour Party member and this now means there are four candidates I don't want to vote for, ie all of them.

I was ready to give my vote to Keir - I really want to - but it looks as if it's going to be Nandy for me. She is equally useless on gc issues but if you're going to have a brainwashed idiot as leader of the Labour Party you might as well have a female brainwashed idiot.

Also a labour part member and feel so let down

I don't want to vote for any of them

how about a little thought experiment
imagine you want to lead the labour party after a catastrophic defeat and lead opposition to a government that will prove to be ruthless, mendacious and all round disastrous for ordinary people and the environment. You see your best hope as being - first, to be elected as leader and then to unite not just the party but the electorate.

because you aren't stupid, and especially because you have (unusually for a man) expertise in violence against women and girls, you are well aware of the dangers posed by transactivism. But, in order to get over the first hurdle you cannot afford to alienate those who (mostly without much serious thought) support transactivism.
So what are you going to do when you are repeatedly asked to toe an ideological line by a group of peoplr who are NOT in a position to help you over that first hurdle?
I think saying 'trans rights are human rights' is a good response. On investigation it will prove that trans people already have all the same human rights as everybody else, and where these are denied I'm sure we can all agree that is wrong. Just as we can all agree that the desires and preferences of trans people don't trump the rights of others. In fact, KS as much as said this in his answer about free speech.
I think those hoping for a more unequivocal answer need to get real. He did not say TWAW, and is probably getting slaughtered on twitter for this even now.

@StillWeRise I agree with this, he couldn't have gone much further than this and still had any hope of being elected. Once elected that is when he can actually do something about this.

I've had a look on Twitter and already seen him called transphobic and pandering to mumsnet by a couple of people

This is exactly what I think stillwerise. He categorically did not say twaw. I take a crumb of comfort from that.
Just a crumb.

StillWeRise
I think I understand your point, yes. But it is the lack of even a cursory acknowledgement though, of women's struggle to uphold their rights and the conflicts here, alongside a vague, hand-wavey dismissal of those (e.g. the response to rogd's post) who are really at the sharp end of this issue.

Also I do sort of hate that women must always wait their turn, get the others over the line, keep rowing, keep bailing out, make a cup of tea for the workers and then see if we get acknowledged tomorrow (if there's time and we can afford it and the stars are aligned etc).

My question has upset some people on Twitter, including doubts about my child’s existence. These things used to annoy me but I now realise they make for good evidence when dealing with school.

I agree with you Still.

I think the other thing to remember is that as important an issue this is to many readers/posters on FWR, my experience of Labour members and even the wider electorate is that this is not a vote killing issue for them.

In other words, the potential leaders stance in support of trans rights is not as important as their views on wider issues - specifically austerity and more generally how left wing/centrist they are.

On the other hand to a large faction within the party, deviation from TWAW is a policy that will absolutely result in vote loss.

In others words, during this leadership campaign there is nothing to be gained in overtly "coming out" as gender critical.

stillwerise has it. This is the sorry state of affairs we are in - it’s not possible to get beyond the next hurdle by unequivocally standing up for women against this assault on their rights right now He has to go softly and betray us in the short term. In the hope of achieving more later.

It’s an outrage but it’s where we are. He gets it I have very little doubt.

So he said TRAHR, did he say TWAW?

No he didn't say TWAW.

It's very good point @StillWeRise. He doesn't need any blue haired loons disrupting his campaign, he just needs to get in and start a culture change from the top down. That's my most sincere wish but not one i have any evidence for.

He gets it I have very little doubt.

I'd be surprised if he didn't, but that said (as we have seen from many politicians) understanding this issue and acting on it to prevent the erosion of women's rights are two very different things and the decision is always made on the basis of political gain/loss rather than evidence.

Upshot is we don't really know his stance on this issue.

I think that’s as strong an indication as you are going to get. I’ll take it.

Ridiculous to be reading the runes like this and having to take crumbs of comfort from things that weren’t said - but we’ve always known we were not the sacred caste.