My feelings about men

[BoxyLoxy]

Name changed, obviously.

Im a regular on here although mostly lurking.

I was wondering how other people reconcile their feelings about how fucking awful the patriarchy is, how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.

Im married, and seriously reconsidering it because I feel this ongoing utter despair at the myriad injustices I put up with. I would NEVER EVER pursue a relationship with a man if I did leave.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

My mother was having an affair with the man she worked for.Father had PTSD from his war experiences ( but it was not recognised then ),serving on ships,having 20 of his mates vaporised when a Japanese bomb hit his gun turret and then transferred to another ship being torpedoed.She worked while they were married.I was a "latch key" kid.

Sounds like a unique set of circumstances classof66
Doesn't excuse your misogynistic views towards working mothers

@OncewasLangandClegtwo
"There is something downright bizarre about people informing women that men kill men more often than men kill women as though we never read a news item or noticed what was going on around us.

Yes very bizzare. And to prove what point? Men kill men and women more than women do."

I've already addressed this above. Take a look.

"How about we just treat people as people instead of applying labels and letting our preconceptions and prejudices do the rest?

That shounds great.Treating people as people.This would also be nice:

A twenty four hour truce during which there is no rape.
A. Dworkin 1983.

I'm sure a lot of women could then let go of their preconceptions and prejudices."

There is so much wrong with this. Let's just focus on the two things that stand out.

1. Let me try the same trick. This would also be nice:

A twenty four hour truce during which there are no false rape allegations.

I'm sure a lot of men could then let go of their preconceptions and prejudices.

See how easy it was to come up with a statement along those lines that helps nobody?

2. You are saying that you will treat half the global population as human when rapists (some of the most disgusting individuals on the face of the globe) improve their behaviour. You're going to wait for that? Really? And until then, to hell with the decent men out there who you judge just for the chromosome they were born with. There's a word out there for that. Sexist.

Treating men and women by a different moral standard is not a direction we should want society to move in. This is exactly the kind of logic used to justify women being paid less for the same work as men as there is a chance they might take an extended period of time off work to have a child.

The way I've viewed this whole thing recently is to ask "what world do I want my 9 week old daughter to grow up in?". I want her to be judged by the merits of her actions not her genitals. I want her to succeed because she's hard working and talented not because she's a girl. I want her to have agency over her own life (at least as much agency as any of us do). To lose out to someone because of your chromosomes is unfair. To beat someone because of your chromosomes is condescending and insulting.

“Decent men” acknowledge the problems men as a class display.

@SueEllenMishke If we call what @Classof66 said about working mysoginistic then we also have to call every negative comment directed at men in this thread based purely on personal experience misandrist. I leave it to others to judge.

@JacquesHammer In what way? There are decent men and scumbags who call themselves men. Just as there are decent women and scumbags who call themselves women.

You are saying that you will treat half the global population as human when rapists (some of the most disgusting individuals on the face of the globe) improve their behaviour. You're going to wait for that? Really? And until then, to hell with the decent men out there who you judge just for the chromosome they were born with. There's a word out there for that. Sexist.

Thats not how you spell 'risk assessment'.
The average man is at more risk of being raped by another man than of being falsely accused of rape. Thats how rare false rape allegations are.

''Imagine for a second that you believe that every single one of the men prosecuted for rape in England and Wales in 2016-17 was falsely accused.

Even if that unlikely scenario were true, there would still have been more adult male victims of rape (8,000) than men prosecuted for those rapes they “didn’t commit” (5,190).''
www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-men-are-more-likely-to-be-raped-than-be-falsely-accused-of-rape

In what way?

it’s fairly self-explanatory but giving you the benefit of the doubt. A decent man would have no issue with people ascribing issues to men as a class - because they acknowledge and accept those issues. They are secure enough in their decency to realise that criticism doesn’t necessarily apply to them, but they can also be part of the solution.

You don’t need to tag me. I’m on the thread.

“Decent men” acknowledge the problems men as a class display

I 100% agree with this.

Classof66's comments were misogynistic and deserved to be highlighted as such.

Interesting thread. Thanks for being honest OP.

I see it as, men are individuals. Good and bad. No one is perfect and everyone is influenced some way or another by society.

So Long as a man is consciously trying to be fair and recognise himself as imperfect and needing improvement then they’re good enough. But yeh no one is perfect

Is this societal distrust of men a perculiarly UK thing? I'm in Canada at the moment, skiing. I've been on umpteen ski lifts. Whilst standing in queues, I've been asked by many ski instructors to 'mind' a kid or two on lift ascents up the mountains. I'm a big, bearded male. My first reaction was, 'Good god, no! I'm a man! Why are you asking me?'

Then I think, 'Of course, why not?'. Do other nationalities have the same reaction? It's not a question I feel comfortable asking the instructors tbh. I just do the human thing and look after the kids for a couple of minutes.

@Thelnebriati Risk assessment is fine until it is taken too far.

hmm it’s fairly self-explanatory but giving you the benefit of the doubt. A decent man would have no issue with people ascribing issues to men as a class - because they acknowledge and accept those issues. They are secure enough in their decency to realise that criticism doesn’t necessarily apply to them, but they can also be part of the solution.

If it were self explanatory I wouldn't have asked the question.

I see what you're saying. Yes, the statement does "acknowledge the problems of men as a class", but this isn't a particularly profound statement. This has been known for donkey's years. I was assuming you were trying to make a grander point, hence my question. My issue comes when it is taken too far. For example. I would consider myself a fairly decent man. The statement "men are more violent than women" is a factually true statement that does not offend me (though depending on the context could be misleading as I've discussed above). My problem comes when those statements are used to take actions that discriminate against people based on a factor of their being they had no control over. So, if you were to use the above information as a justification for locking all men away in prison so that they could not commit violent crimes.

Classof66's comments were misogynistic and deserved to be highlighted as such.

Fine, but it is then fair for me to call many of the comments made in this thread misandrist. Level moral playing field and all that.

@AmbitiouslyFit Yeah, this. And same for women, ethnicity etc.

So, if you were to use the above information as a justification for locking all men away in prison so that they could not commit violent crimes

Isn’t it fortunate that nobody has suggested any such thing.

Do you understand the meaning of hyperbole?

@JurgenKloppsCat Is this societal distrust of men a perculiarly UK thing?

Dunno. I'm in the UK and when I went to teacher training in 2016/17, we had the standard safeguarding of children spiel. One of the things they said was to avoid being alone in a classroom with another student (to avoid any sort of he said she said accusations). It was then made abundantly clear that male teachers should be especially careful of this. I assume (though I don't know) this was because they had more cases of female students and male teachers. Make of it what you will.

hmm it’s fairly self-explanatory but giving you the benefit of the doubt. A decent man would have no issue with people ascribing issues to men as a class - because they acknowledge and accept those issues. They are secure enough in their decency to realise that criticism doesn’t necessarily apply to them, but they can also be part of the solution. If it were self explanatory I wouldn't have asked the question

It wasn't a difficult phrase to unpick and makes perfect sense.

Of course you are free to have an opinion on statements that are posted here....nobody is stopping you. If you have an issue then highlight it and discuss if you feel the need but don't treat this as a tit for tat situation.

*Isn’t it fortunate that nobody has suggested any such thing.

Do you understand the meaning of hyperbole?*

Are you trying to sound condescending or is it my imagination? Hard to judge when it is typed. Just trying to have a civil chat here, nothing more. Probably just my imagination anyway.

Anyway, I used that example for brevity and assumed others were capable of thinking of more realistic ones, but sure, if you want a more grounded example we can do that.

-Women spend more time off work due to childbirth. (Factually sound)
-Women therefore have more time where they are costing the company rather than working
-Therefore men should be hired in preference over women

Personally I'd rather the clock weren't turned back several decades on the issue.

Interesting, Lordchipmunk. On reflection, I was bothered by my own reaction. It happens all the time here, and nobody else seems to give it a second thought. Men and women, young and old, all entrusted with random childcare in a potentially dangerous situation. These things go pretty high at times, as well as leaving you in isolation with kids.

My mate is a beat policeman and they now wear body cameras as a matter of course. Could they be introduced in education where there is always a chance of finding yourself alone with a child? Would they be welcomed?

You'd never get cameras in the class room.....I send university students out to schools and ideally I need them to film aspects of their professional practice for assessment. Over half of schools refuse even though we're filming my students not kids.

Personally I'd rather the clock weren't turned back several decades on the issue

Your example doesn’t stack up in any way as relevant to the OP or indeed the question as to whether we can say there are issues with men as a class. I’m surprised you think it does.

SueEllen, are you aware of other countries having the same restrictions? I understand the need for some control, but the UK seems gripped by paranoia. A couple if years ago, I was competing at a swimming gala. The daughter of one of our coaches was sat on poolside playing a game on her phone. An attendant made her cry by insisting rather haughtily that such devices were not allowed and had to be put away instantly or be confiscated. She was seven or eight.

I can only speak for UK schools. I do know that the approach is completely inconsistent. Some schools have been happy to let me in without any details where as some schools have refused entry unless I have photo ID and a copy of my dbs certificate.
I've also known male colleagues be subjected to extra levels of security - something I complained when I witnessed it.

Your example doesn’t stack up in any way as relevant to the OP or indeed the question as to whether we can say there are issues with men as a class. I’m surprised you think it does.

My examples were using the same logic that some in this thread have used to justify their opinions of men (anecdote or statistic generalised to apply to all men). I am just trying to point out the pitfalls of overgeneralising. Nothing too profound. And there, if you want, I'll leave it.

*It wasn't a difficult phrase to unpick and makes perfect sense.

Of course you are free to have an opinion on statements that are posted here....nobody is stopping you. If you have an issue then highlight it and discuss if you feel the need but don't treat this as a tit for tat situation.*

I got the wrong end of the stick first time around, hence asked for clarification, which was given. Fair enough.

And I never got the impression that I was not allowed to voice an opinion, but thanks anyways.

Cameras in schools
As SueEllen mentions, it is messy. At one of my old schools we had security cameras in "public" areas (e.g. corridors, outside etc) but not in classrooms. There are lots of issues around consent and permission to use likenesses etc AFAIK.

I've also known male colleagues be subjected to extra levels of security - something I complained when I witnessed it.

Good show, I salute you.

Women spend more time off work due to childbirth. (Factually sound)

Maybe true in practice, but the framework is there for Men to have equal parental leave. If Men dont take that option then that's on them.

Why do you think men dont want to take advantage of the shared leave? I can guess why they dont...

Women therefore have more time where they are costing the company rather than working

Nope. SMP comes out of NI contributions. Companies can claim back the cost of SMP from the government.

-Therefore men should be hired in preference over women

Your theory is a bit flawed...

You are saying that you will treat half the global population as human when rapists (some of the most disgusting individuals on the face of the globe)improve their behaviour. You're going to wait for that? Really?

I never said anything about not treating men as human.
What I said was, most women would loose, what you call preconceptions and prejudices (what I would say is fear and caution) when men stop raping and assaulting them.

OncewasLangandClegtwo

I think women being this precautious mean they are feeling too vulnerable.

Is there a way for some boundaries so that women don’t feel this vulnerable?

Because I do think at the end of the day it is counter productive to place prejudice on all men for the evil few. Evil will Always exist in all shapes and forms.

There needs to be the middle way where things can be fair on everyone with a bit of a compromise.

I have a son, husband and brothers and I believe it’s not nice to have men be put in a box because of the actions of other men who are unknown to them. That’s never ok

Also, there are many women who behaved rather abhsively/appallingly with men and that doesn’t give them the right to turn into people who prejudge women and put them in a box where they need to defend themselves to be treated as reasonable human s and be given a chance at empathy and compassion