My feelings about men

[BoxyLoxy]

Name changed, obviously.

Im a regular on here although mostly lurking.

I was wondering how other people reconcile their feelings about how fucking awful the patriarchy is, how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.

Im married, and seriously reconsidering it because I feel this ongoing utter despair at the myriad injustices I put up with. I would NEVER EVER pursue a relationship with a man if I did leave.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

What permits a police officer to wear a body cam but not other professions? They wear them continuously, and don't have to shut them off when entering a private residence or building. It's a twofold benefit - evidence gathering, and also protection against false accusations. I could see a benefit to men in professions like teaching. Without being a teacher myself, I think I'd take the option to wear one if it was possible. If we want to monitor men's behaviour, and maybe lessen incidents of assault and violence, perhaps it's a way forward.

@lordchipmonk Risk assessment is fine until it is taken too far.

What do you mean, too far? If its ''too far'' its no linger a risk assessment, is it.
You object more to women taking precautions for their own safety than to male violence.

What would be acceptable precautionary measures which don’t infringe on either side? I do wonder as this is very different in different cultures isn’t it.

I'm only on page 12 of this thread but very apt as I'm currently sat in Macdonalds afraid to leave due to the group of teenage lads in the doorway shouting abuse at every woman who leaves. And yes it us just women.
Held hostage by a group of 14 year olds.... it starts early

So presumably these feral 14 year olds are totally respectful of the male customers and staff. Why doesn't one of them just tell the kids to go home? Sounds like they'd listen to a male voice.

She just said they are shouting abuse at "just the women" - so that would mean they are not shouting abuse at the male customers or staff.

Yes, I understood that bit. So, why doesn't a male tell then to sod off? Either a customer or the staff? Or is this Maccys a female only commune? I mean, 14 year old boys are hardly terrifying to an adult male or two.

That's a good question, and one you'd probably be better placed to answer, Jurgen.

Another good question would be why 14 yrs old boys feel it's acceptable to shout abuse at women - what factors in society make them think it's ok, and that they can do this with impunity?

The sealioning! The mansplaining! My god - I think it was the third poster in who said she had no truck with men and it was the mansplaining that did it for her.

I think unfortunately some men let the rest of us down and it is sad that some people think this way. I am a SAHP and always feel I am judged by women even though I am a feminist and a kind and gentle man. I agree men need to change but they’re are a lot of us that are good!

@FemiLANGul
*Maybe true in practice, but the framework is there for Men to have equal parental leave. If Men dont take that option then that's on them.

Why do you think men dont want to take advantage of the shared leave? I can guess why they dont...*

The framework is there, but with the whole process of labour and birth placing a higher physical strain on the mother, I would still expect women to be taking the lion's share of that leave in many instances, so I think the original point stands. As to reasons, I've alluded to it above.

Nope. SMP comes out of NI contributions. Companies can claim back the cost of SMP from the government.

I was thinking less about SMP and more about lost productivity from an absent worker.

Hope that clears things up a little.

@OncewasLangandClegtwo
I never said anything about not treating men as human.
What I said was, most women would loose, what you call preconceptions and prejudices (what I would say is fear and caution) when men stop raping and assaulting them.

I would agree with the following: "Most people would lose some of their preconceptions/fears when people stop raping and assualting them."

Sorry, I'm not trying to be overly pedantic or anything, but if you'll allow me to be anecdotal for a moment; in my fairly small family I have:
-One female relative who was gang raped (by men)
-One female relative who was raped/sexually assualted by a trusted female
-One male relative who was sexually assualted by a female aquiantainance.
I hope you'll understand therefore why for the sake of a little tweak of language I'd prefer to not leave out that small percentage of women who do commit sexual assualt.

@Thelnebriati What do you mean, too far? If its ''too far'' its no linger a risk assessment, is it.
You object more to women taking precautions for their own safety than to male violence.

I've objected to violence (male or otherwise) in this very thread. Probably not as obivous though as you don't find a rush of people arguing the point and saying male violence is OK, so there's less of a conversation there.

As for your other question, when is too far, well that's the million dollar question isn't it? Not sure I have an answer. It depends on a bunch of different factors. On a personal level though, I typically say it is too far if I encounter something along the lines of "group X are all..."
"Women are all..."
"Men are all..."
"Black people are all..."
"Jews are all..."
"White people are all..."
You get the idea.

It doesn't wash you know.
Women are all endangered more by mixed sex facilities than single sex facilities.
Men are all Schroedingers rapist.
Black people are not a monolith. They are made up of male and female sexes, just as Jews and whites are.
Half the human population are female, women and girls, including the Black ones, and the White ones, and the Jewish one.
The name of your logical fallacy is the red herring fallacy.

The million dollar question of when risk assessments have gone to far is when people say women are all, men are all ect...
Is that what you are saying?
If it is what you are saying, can I ask who is doing risk assessments and saying men are all, or women are all ect.
How many times have you encountered this in safeguarding or risk assessments?

All these good men...none of them watching porn I take it. Given that it's the industral scale exploitation and abuse of vulnerable women to facilitate the orgasm of males too lazy, entitled or uncaring to use their imagination instead. Unless of course I've got it wrong and they would be happy for their own daughters to end up on pornhub as good, healthy entertainment for the other good men of the world.

I do not think that is fair. You can pick out individual things like porn for men and women. Neither sex is perfect and I admit men are a lot worse. Just trying to say i don’t think it’s right that the good men get lumped with the others :)

Antibles
A man in Ireland was sentenced to two years in prison (so 18 months actually in prison
) for sexually assaulting a woman with special needs. The woman was a friend of his son who also has special needs and they went to school together.

Detective Garda Loftus said the man had been viewing pornography on his iPad and that when he went to get his son, the woman looked at the iPad. When he returned he asked her if she was interested in what she had seen.

Mr Justice White took into account the man had no previous convictions, that he had expressed genuine remorse, acknowledged what he had done and was a good family man.

www.thejournal.ie/sexual-assault-mayo-4982335-Jan2020/#comments

Flower8919
It is your, and other men's, expectation that we should take their word that they are good men that is unreasonable and unfair.

Women and girls are conditioned to do so, and we learn the hard way that it is a mistake.

I totally understand your point and that is tricky but I think it is just wrong to judge all men as being bad!! You shouldn’t trust any strange man or women that you don’t know but you should give men a chance as some of us are lovely!

The name of your logical fallacy is the red herring fallacy.

Except that the intent is not to deceive and the topic (consistency of logic) is not irrelevant so the red herring it is not.

I'll admit I am genuinly surprised to the amount of push back to the following three tenents:

1. People are individuals and should be generally treated as such
2. Sweeping generalisations are generally a bad idea
3. Men and women should be judged by the same moral standard

Live and learn I guess.

How many times have you encountered this in safeguarding or risk assessments?

Formal risk assessments? Things like insurance etc, though that is understandable. Personal RA? A minority of people, haven't kept count of numbers.

All these good men...none of them watching porn I take it. Given that it's the industral scale exploitation and abuse of vulnerable women to facilitate the orgasm of males too lazy, entitled or uncaring to use their imagination instead. Unless of course I've got it wrong and they would be happy for their own daughters to end up on pornhub as good, healthy entertainment for the other good men of the world.

Don't know enough about the porn industry to comment much, but two things spring to mind:

1. I would assume a decent number of "decent" men and women watch porn.
2. On the last point you make, past the age of 18 it is largely irrelevant what a father thinks, would it not be the choice of the son/daughter in question?

I totally understand your point and that is tricky but I think it is just wrong to judge all men as being bad!!
Women are not judging all men as bad. If you read through the thread you will find that a number of women have decided they are not worth the risk. That's all.

If you read through the thread you will find that a number of women have decided they are not worth the risk. That's all.

I think we can all agree that is a very sad state of affairs.

Ok sorry. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just find that I get judged a lot as a man and grouped with all the ‘bad’ men when I definitely don’t deserve that. I know it is men’s fault that has happened but it is also
Women doing the judging and it would just be nice to not have that sometimes.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix well put.

lordchipmonk sad but it’s the reality for many. And fairly so.

Trust has to be earned. All you have to do to earn it is not be a risk.

It would be nicer if women didn't face a risk by associating with men. The risk of violence outweighs your hurt feelings every time.

Flower8919 I agree it’s not fair on men to be grouped as “bad”. But try see it from the other side.

What’s unfair to you might not mean the other side is in the wrong. There is certainly something not working but the answer isn’t for women to feel vulnerable.