My feelings about men

[BoxyLoxy]

Name changed, obviously.

Im a regular on here although mostly lurking.

I was wondering how other people reconcile their feelings about how fucking awful the patriarchy is, how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.

Im married, and seriously reconsidering it because I feel this ongoing utter despair at the myriad injustices I put up with. I would NEVER EVER pursue a relationship with a man if I did leave.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

It is my understanding that class analysis has been proscribed as transphobic.

Viewing women's survival strategies as "shitty behavior" helps me understand why you only see two choices there. Thanks.

Of course there aren't just two choices, but then I'm not the one who suggested that, am I.

Our position in social systems will shape our behaviour, as individuals and a group. That is true wherever we find ourselves in those systems. And none of us crate those systems, they are bigger than all of us, in many ways bigger than the classes or groups that exist within them. Even the political or ruling class is often only able to shift things slightly, if they really have a strong and unified desire to do so.

That's the case for women, which you seem to accept and think it explains behaviour that ends up costing others. But it's also the case for men. If you think it's ok for women to cost others because those are the behaviours that they are shaped to within the system they find themselves in, why would the same thing be a problem for men?

By the same token, there are plenty of people who use their place in the system in a way that costs others, and it's because they are selfish shits and don't care if they hurt someone else. It's not that they are being forced to do it, that no other option is possible. I decide to use sex to get a promotion, but it's ok because I am just fighting the system as best I can? I shouldn't worry that three other women, not to mention maybe others, are actually materally screwed over because of that? I can decide, as a publisher, to publish porn, because it makes me a lot more easy money than publishing something more worthwhile. But that's just using the system to get ahead, and I didn't create the system, so that's ok.

I call bullshit on that. Some people have no choices, but many many people do, and if their choices are driven by caring about their own well being and not that of others, it's exploitative, even if they are women.

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

I understood you the first time.

Just a quick point of information as this had been raised a number of times and people seem a little sparing with statistics. It is true that most violent crime is committed by men. It is also however true that most victims of violent crime are men, which is something that often gets glossed over.

Just a quick point of information as this had been raised a number of times and people seem a little sparing with statistics. It is true that most violent crime is committed by men. It is also however true that most victims of violent crime are men, which is something that often gets glossed over.

Translates to:

Men are so bad, so utterly despicable that they will hit other men too.

(Not just women and dogs.)

I understood you the first time.

Yet you only seem to accept the opinions of women who happen to agree with you, the rest don't count and so no point in engaging.

Sometimes I don't have to wonder where TRAs and MRA's learned their tactics. It's like freaking middle school.

Lordchipmunk and what would you like women to do about that fact?

It is true that most violent crime is committed by men. It is also however true that most victims of violent crime are men, which is something that often gets glossed over

So the issue is violent men then?

Sometimes I don't have to wonder where TRAs and MRA's learned their tactics.

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.

There is something downright bizarre about people informing women that men kill men more often than men kill women as though we never read a news item or noticed what was going on around us.
Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

I think my older married female relatives hated men-as-a-class more than my generation, because they were stuck with them. There were virtually no benefits they could claim, people judged single or divorced women and single mothers extremely harshly. They could remember not being able to work, or open their own bank account or have a credit card without their husbands permission.
They all had stories about husbands stealing money they had earned and saved, or property they had inherited.

I think this is very true. I sometimes hear people saying that nothing has changed, but I know it absolutely has - I need only look at the experience within my family to know it has. The ability to have a bank account, to own property, and to control ones fertility are the three most critical ones.
The stability of the those gains, on the other hand...

Bugger, bold failure.

@HorseWithNoLangCleg No, I didn't say that; you're putting words into my mouth.

@OhamIreally I would ask people in general (not just women) to look up facts and base their opinions on those facts rather than their feelings or preconceptions.

@JacquesHammer Male perpetrated violence is an issue, sure, but not the only one.

Quick note that nothing of what I am going to say is to condone violence of or against either sex.

What I often see in topics such as this one is the statement "most violent crime is committed by men" accompanied by the idea (either explicitly or implicitly) that this means women should be afraid of and/or hate men. This is one of those statements that sounds right but doesn't hold up to proper inspection. When you find out that most of the victims of violent crime are also male, suddenly this turns from a women's rights issue to a men's rights issue (or of course just a human rights issue).

Do a similar thing with domestic violence and you find that all of the following statements are true, rather muddying the waters (note of caution in case it is not obvious, statistics are open to inaccurate collection and misreporting and local variations may apply).

-Men are the aggressors in the majority of domestic violence cases
-Men are more likely than women to be victims of acts of domestic sexual assault
-Homosexual male relationships report a lower occurrence of domestic violence than either homosexual female relationships or heterosexual relationships
-Homosexual female relationships report higher occurrence of domestic violence than either homosexual male or heterosexual relationships
-Bisexual women report the highest occurrence of domestic violence (as victims)

TLDR: How about we just treat people as people instead of applying labels and letting our preconceptions and prejudices do the rest?

No sorry I don't agree.

I have some utterly lovely male friends and I value their perspective.

If you go by reporting you will find that places with a low crime rate have high reporting and places with high crime rates have low reporting.
This applies to individual crimes as well. Rape is so common a crime that reporting is extremely low. Being among the number I was not surprised at the recent study showing the large percentage of girls whose first experience with sexual intercourse was rape.
Airline hijacking, on the other hand is always reported, isn't it?

I've always wondered why men are so complacent about the fact that they're the principle victims of what is often referred to on here as 'the greatest human rights issue the world has ever seen'. It's most bizarre.

I've found it impossible :(

I've always wondered why men are so complacent about the fact that they're the principle victims of what is often referred to on here as 'the greatest human rights issue the world has ever seen'.

We just see violence as part of the human condition. It goes on. It always has. Like all crimes. Most of us do our best to avoid it, despite what many posters in here seem to think. FWR will always have a skewed perception of us. Not much we can do about that either really. I suppose we could pre-emptively lock up those most likely to commit such crimes. Maybe that's the answer.

I suppose we could pre-emptively lock up those most likely to commit such crimes.

Nobody wants that - at the moment I'd settle for locking up the ones that do, and have committed such crimes though.

So much sexual and violent crime against women goes unpunished - the percentages of sexual crime and domestic violence ending in a conviction is very low.

Some of us are quite nice,but I have to say as a child of divorced parents who had to live with his mother who went to work,I know that I missed and was damaged by lack of contact with and being cared about by my mother.That is why I am so concerned about the great number of women who would rather go out to work rather than look after their children.
I shall now put on my tin hat and retire to my bomb shelter !

Obvious goad is obvious

Okay classof66 I'll bite.
What about working fathers? Do they ever get any of the blame for this 'damage'?
As your mother was a single parent I'm guessing one of the reasons she went back to work was to earn money for things like rent/mortgage, food, clothes, utilities etc. I'm sure she appreciates your gratitude 🙄

Yip, on the whole we should treat people as people not labels

To me it's just sad when someone's experience is such that they can no longer see the need to do that, when they feel the label is all they need. Or that they feel the need to bash one or other labelled group. ( all those women do it too comments )

Funnily enough, on the whole ( in life) women are more likely to be treated as a woman first and person second, and to some extent that is what feminism is about.

There are times when the label based approach is to be recommended however. Risk assessment, healthcare responses, and also because the label based approach is a human default that needs work to overcome. Nothing ever simple.

There is something downright bizarre about people informing women that men kill men more often than men kill women as though we never read a news item or noticed what was going on around us.

Yes very bizzare. And to prove what point? Men kill men and women more than women do.

Should every thread on FWR start with a disclaimer?
NAMALT and don't forget some women are like that ect..

How about we just treat people as people instead of applying labels and letting our preconceptions and prejudices do the rest?

That shounds great.Treating people as people.This would also be nice:

A twenty four hour truce during which there is no rape.
A. Dworkin 1983.

I'm sure a lot of women could then let go of their preconceptions and prejudices.

@TheBewildernessisWeetabix Yes, reporting rates are one of the many problems with crime statistics.

@Jargoyle Are men complacent? Do we "show(ing) smug or uncritical satisfaction with oneself or one's achievements."? This seems to imply that not enough is being done about it. Having worked in the education and social sectors in the past, I can tell you (in the UK at least) there are a lot of efforts being made by various people to combat violent crime. Watching for example a group of former gang members talk about how they would groom adolescent boys to act as drug mules is both eye-opening and disconcerting even for a bunch of (usually rowdy) teenagers. These efforts seem to be bearing fruit, with violent crime incidence rates stagnating or dropping in many countries.

Secondly, perhaps there is some acknowledgement especially among men that violence, however bad it may be, is never going to disappear completely. Let's be honest, sometimes it is the answer to a problem. Both myself and my father were physically bullied at school (as were/are many others). In each of our cases, the school (different schools) did nothing (to be fair it is quite hard for schools act as it is often one child's word against another). My Dad eventually picked up his bully and dropped him in a rubbish bin, whereupon the bullying stopped. In my case the bullying stopped when I made the bugger bleed. In each case, violence was the answer to the problem.

Finally, "men" are not one homogeneous hive mind. We are each individual people and on an individual level, many men do their part to combat violence by not instigating violence themselves.

@SueEllenMishke I'm not sure @Classof66 was trying to be dismissive of their mother's efforts (though I could of course be wrong). I think they were highlighting the pretty well established fact that single parent households are more difficult for a child to grow up in compared with double parent households. Again, I could of course be wrong.

lordchipmonk
It sounded more like he had an issue with women working tbh

I am so concerned about the great number of women who would rather go out to work rather than look after their children