My feelings about men

[BoxyLoxy]

Name changed, obviously.

Im a regular on here although mostly lurking.

I was wondering how other people reconcile their feelings about how fucking awful the patriarchy is, how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.

Im married, and seriously reconsidering it because I feel this ongoing utter despair at the myriad injustices I put up with. I would NEVER EVER pursue a relationship with a man if I did leave.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

I'm not reporting the lovely fellow above, only because it's amusing how any article or thread about feminism ends up illustrating the need for feminism in the comments. It never fails, it's as reliable as death and taxes.

It was inevitable, in light of Justine's comment about respecting opposing views, that misogynists would arrive to test her sincerity.

I feel like I missed something when I was gone for a few months. Did HQ actually ban the cake/recipe conversations? I've seen people vaguely alluding to this but wasn't really paying attention.

MNHQ told us it was not in the spirit to derail and mock the Midnight Misogynist by exchanging our favorite recipes.

Many of us have been having a sad over it. can also get you in trouble.

Ta tellmewhen lang may yer lum reek!!

5th rule of misogyny: Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

I can understand why some have thrown the MRA/WATM accusations after my earlier posts, especially after some of the delightful posters in the past 24 hours, but I just don't believe women are angels in all honesty. Men commit a lot more serious crimes than women, even if it's not most men, but I've been mistreated much more in my life by other females.

I know this is just my anecdotal experience, but there was a thread here a good while back (maybe a year ago) where posters were talking about how they'd experienced less than favourable treatment from their female bosses at work, which led me to believe it's a fairly common situation - focus was partly on the legal sector I recall. A common story seemed to be that many senior females weren't particularly supportive of their female reports in regard to family responsibilities and instead had an attitude of 'I've made the sacrifice, so you should too if you want to progress'.

Of course some women are happy to play the patriarchy to their advantage, and being selfish isn't a gendered trait, but I just don't see this female solidarity so many people seem to believe exists. Another explanation is that maybe some people just experience what is often seen as the capitalist/Tory mindset when they attain wealth, where they belief that they've 'earned it' and others need to do the same if they want the same (like the aforementioned female boss). It's like how everyone says they'd hand in a big bag of money if they found it, but I speculate that a fair few might not if they actually found themself in that position.

What I found particularly interesting was the posted statistics. If I recall correctly they were:

• all but one study on the topic showed that women prefer working for a man than another female.
• men collaborate better than women and a man/woman combo still collaborates better than two women.
• women are less likely to help another woman who is senior to them.

I don't think men are angels by any stretch either, but day to day I don't find my interactions with women any better and just can't get on board with this anti male sentiment. If somebody had said that most people are shit, with some exceptions then I'd probs agree.

9th rule:

Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

It’s structural, Jargoyle. Borne out by evidence-based analysis, data and stats. Anecdotes describing exceptions are just that...anecdotes.

A common story seemed to be that many senior females weren't particularly supportive of their female reports in regard to family responsibilities and instead had an attitude of 'I've made the sacrifice, so you should too if you want to progress'.

Yes and another very common story is senior male bosses are particularly supportive to their younger female charges, and we all know why that is.

“Some women are happy to play the patriarchy to their advantage”
Some women try to manipulate and adapt to the restrictive system imposed on them? How dare they.

I am always a bit taken aback by discussions of how disappointing it is that women are going around acting like people.

Unpack your conditioning please.

The thought that they (or anyone else) are judged for their genitals is so sad to me

They're being judged by their historic and current actions. We don't need to see someone's genitalia to know which sex commit a vast majority of violent crimes.

I find the idea that women just randomly hate all men so weird. I mean, I have a son who I adore, a husband who is more or less the best human being I ever me, apart from my mum and an ex who is the most amazing, loving co parent to our daughter.

The very few women who hate ALL men didn’t just randomly happen upon that position, they arrived there because of the men they experienced.

Any suspicion of strange men (something most women have) is mammalian survival instinct, males, in almost all mammal species, are bigger and stronger than the females. To completely ignore mammalian instincts would be a Herculean task, and a undesirable one. Males are less suspicious and more prone to risk taking, because they can afford to be. Hence all the online dating scams up thread having male victims, gay or straight.

Women tend to be more cautious about meeting strangers (meeting in public places, talking for an extended period before meeting, checking out the potential dates social media, asking mutual friends for references etc) so are less likely to be good victims for a robbery scam.

I do believe that socialisation is different for boys and girls, but I also believe our starting points are different. Hence needing separate sports categories for most events.

If often comes across as some messed up Laws of Attraction thing, where people are not so subtly implying that if someone is suspicious of men due to horrible experiences then there must be something about her that caused those things to happen/those men to target her specifically. There's a smugness that grates.

I have arrived at a similar position to the OP. The phrase "myriad injustices" really resonates with me. I think ageing and the menopause brings a clarity that wasn't there before.

I think my older married female relatives hated men-as-a-class more than my generation, because they were stuck with them. There were virtually no benefits they could claim, people judged single or divorced women and single mothers extremely harshly. They could remember not being able to work, or open their own bank account or have a credit card without their husbands permission.
They all had stories about husbands stealing money they had earned and saved, or property they had inherited.

I think that's probably true @Thelnebriati . My mother tells a story about her friend who was divorced at the time, a professional, headmistress of a school who, when she tried to arrange a credit agreement in a shop, was told that a man would have to underwrite the agreement as they couldn't accept it from a woman. She explained she was divorced and no close male relatives to which the man in the shop replied "it doesn't matter who it is - just any man will do - pull one in off the street if you have to". This would have been in the 1970's. My mum is still outraged about it now, that a financially independent woman could not be trusted to sign her own credit agreement.
I also think the respect accorded to a married woman is actually being accorded to her husband- rather how we are unlikely to be shoulder barged by a man when out with our husbands as we are his property. I rather think this is one of the reasons why men have a hard time believing about the daily aggression we face as they just don't see it (or are the ones meting it out and in denial).

I think my older married female relatives hated men-as-a-class more than my generation, because they were stuck with them.

This reminds me - a year or so back, a male friend posted an off hand comment on Facebook asking why divorce rates had gone up.
I equally as flippantly replied "because women no longer have to put-up and shut-up". My comment garnered hundreds of likes and hell yeah type comments.

He was gob smacked that women thought that way. I was gobsmacked that it wasn't already bloody obvious.

I have arrived at a similar position to the OP. The phrase "myriad injustices" really resonates with me. I think ageing and the menopause brings a clarity that wasn't there before.

That resonates with me too. Unfortunately for me my only living relatives are two sons, a husband and two brothers. Maybe because if that I long for a female only commune or maybe should live on my own. I've often wished I were a lesbian.

marvellousnightforamooncup

My support comes from my own chosen and raised tribe.

My OH, my DS and DD. All have fairness as a mindset and aware of sex and other injustice.

The two other close realatives I have are both women hating- my mother and sister.
Both deep christians.

Don't expect solidarity just because you have a genetic link.

Speakout, that's a rough draw. I was actually started on my feminism path by Christian women. The first one told me we need feminism, while I thought it was all done. I watched the Facebook conversations between younger feminist ordinands in my area, alongside reading MN. In my area, there is a strong network of feminists in the church, and some incredible men who support them. I've learned a lot.

Still don't like random men, though.

Some women try to manipulate and adapt to the restrictive system imposed on them? How dare they.

Sure. Using the system they inherent for their own advantage, no matter how it impacts other women. A lot like some men use the system they inherit for their own advantage, no matter how it impacts women.

It's either shitty behaviour, or it's just human and we shouldn't judge it.

"Never set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm."
"Always put on your own oxygen mask before helping others."

Viewing women's survival strategies as "shitty behavior" helps me understand why you only see two choices there. Thanks.

If you ban a group from using assertive speech and behaviour, they are going to switch to manipulative speech and behaviour. That benefits no one. It gives the ruling caste another reason to loathe the underclass, and it pits the underclass against each other.

Its one reason feminists encourage assertiveness training, honesty and directness.

It's either shitty behaviour, or it's just human and we shouldn't judge it
I'm calling 'false dichotomy' on that one!

Are we meant to be giving up class analysis for the new year or something? FFS.