My feelings about men

[BoxyLoxy]

Name changed, obviously.

Im a regular on here although mostly lurking.

I was wondering how other people reconcile their feelings about how fucking awful the patriarchy is, how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.

Im married, and seriously reconsidering it because I feel this ongoing utter despair at the myriad injustices I put up with. I would NEVER EVER pursue a relationship with a man if I did leave.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

But do you seriously not see the issue with labelling any counter to your view as an 'MRA argument'? It's exactly the same thing that TRAs do by labelling any arguments against self-ID as 'transphobic'.

Basically shutting down debate.

Unfortunately, I can't shake the feeling that men, good men, like my husband and father, only really care for the women they love - their mothers, wives, daughters. They're not really aware of the lot of womankind, as a class.

Amen.
Men definitely care about individuals ('their' women) and trip over themselves to tell you about the time they defended Helen from accounts when she was being chatted up at the Christmas party.
But 99.99% couldn't give a shiny shit about ending male violence. It's too much work & - let's be honest - benefit from the advantage.

''Man digs 12 foot hole not realising his metal detector is picking up his steel toe cap boots.''

It wasn’t a counter to a view though. “what about the menning” about how men fear other men doesn’t tell anyone anything about why women fear men!

Basically shutting down debate

Not at all. We asked for better arguments, ones not so easily torn down. You can do it! I am not labeling your arguments, I am showing how they are not arguments. But I am always open to being convinced by a better one.

And Happy Burns Day!!

The haggis was excellent, eaten to the tunes of Rawlins Cross. While wearing a fair isle jumper. Cooked by a Scottish born DH.

Now off for doubles of the water of life at the pub. Will raise my glass to all of you, and to better arguments!

The fourth rule of FWR is that you shall never attempt to view things from the other side during a gendered debate.

Come back when you actually try to do that.

Violence against women is a gendered debate. Violence is most often carried out by men, and sexual violence is most often directed towards women.

Its not surprising that women will have a reaction to reality.

I don't know why you think you dictate what the rules of FWR are, Jargoyle? We are all individual posters. As I said, the only rules are MNHQ guidelines pinned to the top of the board.

It would be refreshing to see men taking some kind of positive action about male violence instead of trying to blame women for it, or saying women do it too, or complaining only women get help.

Nothing women have has been handed to us on a plate. We have to discuss what the problems are and what to do about it in order to change anything.

The one thing we can't do is change men, or male attitudes.

I don't think they'll catch on like the rules of misogyny.

.. Femtron 5000..

I've got that album.

eg 9th rule of misogyny:

Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

I think horses have beautiful faces

(Blushes)

I don't really like men, all of the men in my life have treated me badly or taken me for granted. I include father, brothers, male friends, boyfriends.

I know also that I have spent a lot of time in my youth trying to make myself acceptable to the male gaze.

I think woman are mis-sold on marriage, and the need to be feel chosen by a man, take his name and have everybody know that they have by doing that, like a right of passage and a badge of honour.

The only thing I've ever got from a man was my two children.

I will never live with a man again or probably even have a relationship. I do miss sex, but the price is too high for me to go down that road.

I'm married to a man who isn't a twat and who is a co-parent. The amount out people who would say I am lucky or " isn't xxx good" fucks me off.
We are both lucky as we have an equal relationship, and he is as " good" with the kids as I am. I did most of the getting up in the night, breastfeeding, toddler wrestling and he was always there and not a twat. Now I also have a full time, full on job, the kids tend to call on Dad more. Swings and roundabouts as it should be. The amount of women who raise an eyebrow is deflating though, and if they comment about him being great and all that, I'll just say, "no, he just does as much of me and isn't a dickhead". I can almost see their brain whiting, milling the possibility that there supposed nearest and dearest is a selfish bastard who treats them like a handmaiden. No.
Me and DH met young and grew up together, i was never going to be a Ma Walton type, but we muddled through together, so I don't resent him, we still have a laugh, the kids (both boys) don't have the sexist blueprint ingrained. This is how it should be.
I'd never get involved with another man though. I like men, I have loads of male friends as they just can go out and do there hobbies with me, but there is a reason for that.

OP I agree, also with the poster who says the better men only love their wives and daughters. Actually, from what I’ve seen a huge subset of those good men actually just tolerate their wives and daughters. That is why it is so easy for them to damage other women. Love is love, if you genuinely love women you simply cannot switch it off the minute you step out your front door and become a hater or predator to all other women.

But I also don’t agree with the idea that women are better, more trustworthy etc, a better world with only them in it etc. I honestly believe a LOT of what is happening couldn’t happen if a majority of women didn’t condone and collude with sexism, make excuses for it, keep bringing their sons up entitled to it.

The honest truth is too many women believe that if they get by or succeed then why the hell do they need to collaborate with other women. Take for example solicitors are 50% women now, yet look at the abysmal number of rape cases that succeed. Why? Because women as much as men are quite happy to be used as the face of a legal system to devastate victims’ evidence if it means their career gets a bump. A lot of men are smart enough not to be at the front of that anymore, but too many women are “sign me up”.

Although we’ve had women PM's not one of them sympathised or supported women’s issues meaningfully. They honestly think they got there all by themselves. They excuse themselves by arguing that they can’t blatantly support women’s issues or it would alienate men. Well, what the bloody hell have women been putting up with for centuries? And if that’s women’s attitude why the bloody hell should we vote for them ?!

I have a friend who’s offered her BF’s significant loans, yet she goes on lunch dates with a mutual woman friend of ours who’s going through the divorce wringer and NEVER ask her if she could do with a loan, infact she makes sure she splits the bill! It never ceases to shock me. She’s been through divorce herself, she know’s its financial killer so why does she give men she barely knows something she wouldn’t offer a much closer female friend (who saved her thousands of dollars with previous advice btw)? Because deep down she’ll help a man but not a woman. Too many women want to help men but believe women should be on their own.

Its the same too when women coo over men doing basic parenting yet ignore the 85% work the woman has done for the same child.. This constant bolstering of men, Its as if these women think if they show men how nice they'll be allowed into a secret club or something.

We don’t have all the power but we have enough power and the numbers to make significant change if we joined together on the key issues. We can keep blaming men for the pennies on the pound less we earn, and the daily micro and macro aggressions, but too many women are in service to men mentally, physically and emotionally and quite a bit of it is choice. Until that stops its never going to end.

The men who suffer are our sons, and we want to protect them. That doesn't mean we don't recognise the source of the threat

If by "we" you mean society and if by "the threat" you mean male violence then I don't think the source of the threat is recognised.

I don't agree with comments like this
But 99.99% couldn't give a shiny shit about ending male violence. It's too much work & - let's be honest - benefit from the advantage
fgs male violence affects men too for one thing.

I don't know why men are more violent than women- they clearly are - but glib comments like that don't answer anything.

What causes some men to be violent? I've never experienced it , ever. None of the men in my life whether family, friends, or lovers, have been violent. Why not- what made the difference? There must have been something in their lives which led to violence being unthinkable.

Presumably this is a mixture of upbringing, parental influence, life expectations. My husband is from a working class, background, very different from mine. His father was a manual worker, they lived on a rough council estate. His father was a decent , non- violent man- not all their neighbours were (and yes he did step up) His 2 sons are exactly like him. My brother and I are from a nice middle class farming background. My brother, my son and my nephew are decent, non- violent men.

I'm not a criminologist, sociologist or psychologist. I don't know what research has been done on why some men are violent. Finding out and tackling it should be a top priority.

Based on the responses, I do wonder if there are social and geographic clusters of men with misogynistic (or reasonable) attitudes where, in both cases, adoption of the group attitude is as much an attempt to fit in as it is genuinely held beliefs (as well as self selection).

Quote of the Day:Civility Is Overrated. The gravest danger to democracy isn’t an excess of vitriol—it’s the false promise of civility.

I don't know why men are more violent than women- they clearly are - but glib comments like that don't answer anything.

Have you heard of the male variability hypothesis? Essentially, in evolutionary terms and timescales, it's more advantageous for men to have greater variability in cognitive function than it is for women; since a male parent whose stupidity gets them killed may still have surviving offspring and, at the same time, there's a decent chance that a genius father might well be able to raise even more while a pool of mothers with a greater portion of idiots (and geniuses) are less likely to raise their children to the point of reproduction. This is by no means a widely accepted theory but it makes sense to me. That said, I'm not presenting it as the sole explanation.

Male violence is glorified and celebrated in most cultures. Too many young men develop their world view based on the normalization of violent response to dominance threats. Think about how many times in an ordinary work day we are subjected to male dominance displays.

Happy Burns Day Fleet I toasted my heritage (dads side) with a Haggis sausage roll and coffee at the pub (designated driver). Lovely it was.

Empathizing with serial killers of women POV is a bridge too far for me.

And regarding OLD, it's a fairly sell known set up for an attractive woman to catfish a young guy into meeting her for him then to be mugged/beaten by her male accomplices

I've never heard of this. Has anyone else heard of this?

It is in the '50s & '60s soldier boy movies quite a bit. The guy gets rolled by the prostituted woman's pimp.
Locally a16 year old girl got life for doing this scam with her boyfriend who killed a sailor in Bremerton. The boyfriend got less time because judges really really like to teach girls lessons.