Lang Cleg 2

[TiredofthisBSbutIstandwithLang]

New thread as we got to 1000.

Doyoumind Yes on page 11, no deletion message or anything, just a blank space.

Flipping heck, this thread is like a zombie film. I looked away for a minute and suddenly- Loads of people i thought were gone forever, seem to have come back. It's a miracle, I tell ya. Just one or two more....

Just checking in to see if MNHQ has let Lang back in?

No?
The phrase 'shooting themselves in the foot' springs to mind.

Sir! Sir! The women are being mean again sir!

Of course that isn't a 'personal attack' WotchaTalkinBoutWillis

How bizarre that you you can't distinguish it from one.

Should men moderate a feminism board: yes or no - this is a discussion of principle that can and should be discussed.

Concluding that it is only permissable to either support the concept or keep quiet because a man is already in position is why we need a feminist discussion board in the first place.

Feminists mustn't dissent against any man moderating their speech because a specific man who is already moderating their speech might feel personally attacked?

Really?

Knowing what I do of the male moderator already in position, I can make an educated guess that he doesn't feel the least bit attacked, and even if he did, he has the nous to conclude that his personal feelings don't factor in to such a debate.

Frankly, I think there is an issue with employing a male moderator for a feminist board.

I think there is an issue with a male moderator determining which women’s speech must be suppressed.

You cannot be serious?

Frankly, I don't see what's so hard on here about following the guidelines. It isn't difficult. If you repeatedly break them then that's a choice that you make.

Justine in a statement made it very clear why Lang had been banned. No one deserves to be abused for just doing their job and I've seen messages on here saying that abuse of moderators won't be tolerated - why is that hard to understand?

For those saying Lang was never rude etc - maybe you should have tried being on the receiving end occasionally.

Of course that isn't a 'personal attack' WotchaTalkinBoutWillis
How bizarre that you you can't distinguish it from one

Seeing as there's one male mod who has commented on the thread, of course it's likely going to be seen as personal by the person on the receiving end!
How bizarre that you think it won't be.

Should men moderate a feminism board: yes or no - this is a discussion of principle that can and should be discussed.

This board - yes. He isn't moderating topics of conversation, or controlling what people are saying. He's moderating comments that break TG which are posted for all to see. It's not hard to comply with them. He's not making value judgements about what people are saying. Did the comment break guidelines - yes or no. I'm quite sure that a man is as able as a woman to follow the guidelines.

No man should moderate women's discussions = impersonal

This one specific named man should not moderate women's discussions, the rest of the men are fine = personal

No man should moderate women's discussions, oh shit, one already is, everybody pretend it's completely ok so as not to hurt the feelings of the man who is already moderating us = bizarre

Nope, of course men should not moderate FWR!

Frankly, I don't see what's so hard on here about following the guidelines. It isn't difficult. If you repeatedly break them then that's a choice that you make.

I can name a poster who has had at least 6 posts removed in January alone, and yet is still free to post. That really doesn't suggest even handed moderation.

I do have any problem with Male moderators. MN is a predominantly female space, but not an exclusively female space.
We don’t know the personal views of Moderators on lots of topics relevant to women (abortion, surrogacy etc) but that doesn’t matter as long as they apply the guidelines fairly and transparently. Male or female is neither here nor there.
Let’s not forget that the staff member who actively consorted with trans activists online was female.

don’t have any problem.....autocorrect you nobber.

Frankly, I don't see what's so hard on here about following the guidelines. It isn't difficult.
To be honest that used to be my view too. I now think it was delusional.
I don't believe I am any cleverer at avoiding deletion than Lang was. The difference is that my posts have so far slipped under the radar.

And I have no issue over the sex of moderators. The mode behind the security leak a year or so ago was, if I recall correctly, female.

Whatever the sex of any given moderator, the attitude to FWR and certain excellent posters is clearly coming straight down from Justine, doubtless ultimately swayed by the almighty disgusting margarine dollar.

Mod not mode.

I posted earlier (and was deleted for reasons that are not clear to me, though I have asked for clarification) about the difference between discussing ideas and discussing people.

Should men moderate the boards is - to me - a valid question. Should a named individual moderate the boards - which hasn’t been asked would not be appropriate in my view.

It might be a question better asked in a separate thread, to avoid confusion or deliberate misunderstandings.

The point isn't to have the debate for or against male moderators right now. We'll all have opinions and I think that's worth discussing perhaps on its own thread.

The point is that a poster responded that to have the debate at all was a personal attack because it's too late, there already IS a male moderator, so no dissent, even to the general principle can be discussed now.

Nevertheless, the point was raised, so I answered it.

So women, please be nice and kind.

Is what it all boils down to

Yes, my statement is a political one. It’s not in any way a personal attack. I’m sure Justine would not have hired some sexist lout as moderator.

Must I say that there are many men in my life I care dearly for, that I am married to one, etc. etc.?

But feminism is a political movement for the liberation of women from the effects of millennia of male domination, domination which continues to exist in various ways today because the work of the Second Wave is not finished.

And some of what the Second Wave studied is the unconscious ways patriarchy is internalized and replicated.

Obama, for instance, was widely hailed as a feminist. But his administration were seriously considering legislation to force banks to only issue credit according to individual rather than household income. It never occurred to him - he couldn’t see— the effect this would have on women, esp. SAHMs and how it could facilitate financial coercion/abuse of wives. Later, he refused to approve the sale of Plan B OTC to minors without parental approval because, he said, as the father of daughters he couldn’t imagine not being involved in their need for reproductive healthcare. It took some years before discussion with women finally changed his mind, but what he was expressing was purely patriarchy in action.

Yet no one ever doubted he was committed to women’s equality.

Feminists understand best what feminists mean when they speak. And even the best of men do not necessarily.

Willis, that’s twice now you’ve described things as ‘attacks’ on moderators which are nothing of the sort (posters expressing concern that a man moderating feminist discussion may not be appropriate, and raising concerns that some moderators do not seem to be able to differentiate between disagreement and aggression). Can you differentiate between disagreement and aggression? You seem to be using ‘attack’ in a very different way to how most of us understand it!

Should men moderate the boards is - to me - a valid question. Should a named individual moderate the boards - which hasn’t been asked would not be appropriate in my view.

I think trying to draw that distinction is pretty disingenuous in circumstances where there is, as far as we know, only one male moderator and he's posted on this thread. It's perfectly apparent who is being referred to.

And questioning whether he is capable of doing his job simply because of his sex is both rude and probably discriminatory.

If the issue is that men, apparently, can't be feminists then surely you should be asking MNHQ to guarantee that all of the female mods are feminists too?