The Composition and Demographics of the Growing Trans Population

[Justhadathought]

It seems that every week ( even as reported in just my local tabloid newspaper) the 'transitioning' population increases, and the Transgender Umbrella ( as determined by Stonewall) provides shelter for a very wide range of demographic of people.

Yet it seems to me ( would be interesting to see statistics) that apart from young women ( mainly lesbians) transitioning to male...the largest and most rapidly accelerating group is that of older 'cross dressing' males. Most often heterosexual or married, and quite often having been in, or performed, an archetypal macho or traditionally masculine role or occupation ( been in the military etc).

This is not only as evidenced by the growing number of reports in my local newspaper, but from my own observations on the street and around town: www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/transgender-woman-agreed-cannabis-plot-17604909

There’s also Michael Biggs’ report on the Tavi’s “experiment with puberty blockers”

users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_ExperimentPubertyBlockers.pdf

The idea that there is no alternative to transitioning for gender dysphoria is simply not true — we don’t actually know, because since at least the 1980s there hasn’t been any research into alternatives.

So when people assert that “talk therapy” doesn’t work, what they mean is that the modalities of talk therapy present in the 1940s-1980 don’t work.

Since that time, therapists have developed all sorts of other modalities: DBT, for instance.

There is also an entire array of medications that weren’t available in 1980 that have never been researched.

A Cochrane Review in the US evaluating the efficacy of medical and surgical transition to determine if federal monies should cover it found that there were NO studies without significant design flaws demonstrating that transition was effective. They ended up staying that it should be covered simply because there wasn’t anything else available because nothing else had recently been researched.

My question is: WHY is nothing else being researched? Medical researchers study all
kinds of things and often achieve significant breakthrough by going against commonly accepted pathways. Who would have ever suspected stomach ulcers could be treated with antibiotics? Until someone raised the “What if we’re doing it wrong” question.

THAT’s the question activists, including WPATH, will simply not permit being asked. Witness what happened to James Caspian. Witness Marcus Evans’ statement when he resigned as head of the Tavistock.

I see the case in the news and it leaves with a bit of disappointment really. Not only for the few children who could be consigned to years of distress that could be avoided but, for the children down the line whose parents etc... could then use a judgement of this nature to prevent them exercising bodily autonomy over things such as abortion and contraception because if you can't consent to blockers it could certainly be argued that you can't consent to other medical treatments.

I personally feel that a judge has no place in deciding the child's medical needs. Hopefully, the NHS will defend their position robustly but maybe you'll be right and they won't and then they'll be left what on earth they going to do with the group not unlike myself who they spend a fortune on in mental health care only for them to pay again when they transition down the line. It'll be interesting to see what happens, I suspect one of us is going to feel sad either way.

Bickerinbrattle

I can understand that you are saying there has been no research into alternative treatments but, they seem to have arrived at a point where in the majority of cases what they do now, leads to a reasonable level of satisfaction. As far as I can see post surgery it is around 98-99%. Not bad considering. I'm not sure it's consistent for the GC to argue on the one hand that blockers should not be used due to lack of evidence whilst at the same time suggesting trying out an array of medications that haven't been tested in what seems like a wish for them to make an effort to cure us in a way that doesn't leave some feeling uncomfortable.

Improvements are very welcome and I suspect they will come but in the grand scheme of medicine I think gender treatments are way down the list of concerns for the movers and shakers. We probably won't see it during our lifetimes but there will come a day when trans people aren't a root of discomfort for so many, that I am absolutely sure of.

I don't know if anybody is looking into it but they have tried many 'cures' down the years but, up until now none appear to work as well as the current pathway

I'm not sure of your precise situation or 'make-up' but having read a memoir by Grayson Perry recently, it would seem that transvestitism, for one, tends to be there for life; most often starting in early childhood. However, Grayson Perry, himself, says that part of the thrill he used to get cross dressing has dissipated due to the fact that he's now a famous cross dresser......

No, stats, you can’t assert a 98-98% satisfaction rate precisely because, as the Cochrane Review (which, by the way, is hold standard for evidenced-based medicine) found NO studies with statistical validity and/ or without disqualifying design flaws demonstrating that.

Gold standard

Big long wait and then questionably rushed down a path, frequently where they have already socially transitioned and so are deeply imbedded in a mindset which possibly could have been avoided by extensive holistic counselling way at the beginning

The young de-transitioners at the Manchester event mentioned how hard it is to de-transition when your whole identity is now tied up, socially, with being trans: your pronouns, trans name, friendships etc - And furthermore once started on a medical pathway - it feels incredibly difficult to turn back and admit it was not the right thing for you. Also de-transitioners are shunned by the trans community.You are cast adrift; often ridiculed or told that you were never "really trans" in the first place.

So when people assert that “talk therapy” doesn’t work, what they mean is that the modalities of talk therapy present in the 1940s-1980 don’t work.

other modalities: DBT, for instance.

There is some truth in this.

We’re talking long term here aren’t we? Long term therapies are not currently fashionable with the NHS. They’re not highly regarded by commissioners, NICE, or the department of health. Not seen as cost effective in many cases. Very few areas offer DBT on the NHS.

I agree it deserves further thought..

I would go further and say the platinum standard for satisfaction is the experience of trans people who have transitioned. I''m satisfied in that my life has been improved in that I no longer really feel as though I am watching my life as a spectator from the outside. I'm pretty confident that in feeling better post treatment that I am not in a minority and if I am i would be equally confident that the NHS would be onto a huge hundreds of people turning up at the GP's every year saying they've made a mistake. To have a study with statistical validity it would likely require a control group that would consist of a group of people diagnosed with GD but refused treatment and then see how they got on 10, 20 and 30 years down the line. I'm not sure the ethics of that are founded in do no harm.

Justadathought

My precise situation is sat at home on the sofa looking after a boyfriend suffering from man flu however, the thrill of 'the dress' so to speak is not something I'm familiar with. My sexuality is homosexual as I do believe in sex although I'd be lying if I said for me that was an attraction to genitals and chromosomes. I just like men who well for want of a better word look like men. That said, I've been known to prefer a cup of tea recently.

It's all good and well sitting here talking about it but you need to be showing those Dr's and psychiatrists that they have got it all wrong.

do you realise...
dozens of clinicians have resigned from the Tavistock because of this?
A clinical director resigned when the Tavistock board of governors tried to bury a report that was created by a member of their clinical staff that effectively said "they were doing it all wrong?"
A Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford has said there isn't enough evidence to support the pathway?
One of their former clinical staff is taking them to court to try to get them to stop?
A network of detransitioners is trying to get publicity for their situation despite intense aggression directed at them from the trans community?
The BBC and Channel 4 have done documentaries to draw attention to this question?

What more are you expecting Mumsnet posters to do? I'm pretty sure those of us who are in a position to try and expose this medical scandal are already doing it!

We know nothing about the long term satisfaction rate of the new cohort of (mostly) teen girls presenting with GD/GI issues. GIDS does not track the outcomes of their patients. That’s one of the biggest issues right now. No one knows. Anecdotally, there are more and more detransitioners coming out, but generally speaking, they do not seem to show any inclination to go back to GIDS to update them (not surprisingly). Given the Tavi graph over the past ten years, we’re probably just at the start of some of this cohort detransitiong as they mature and start to hit their early to mid 20s.

quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

here's an article which covers many of the above instances of people desperately trying to show the Tavistock fanatics that they have it all wrong.

And there may be a hard core of transsexual pts for whom transition is the only option.

But there may be many others for whom some of these newer treatment modalities my work. As Bicker says, modalities that were not tested on trans patients in the 60s and 70s. It’s worth thinking about.

I have been thinking the same thing myself recently although I haven’t expressed it here (not trying to steal Bicker’s words).

Justathought

I feel for the young de transitioners. I'm not sure my same sympathies lie with the odd desister who never had any treatment, wasn't seen by a GIC and worked out they weren't trans seemingly early in the day working to try and get the treatment for people who are in a different position than her curtailed.

I am interested in those that de transition though and I feel for them if they were misdiagnosed as I would feel for anyone misdiagnosed with any condition. Their stories need to be studied, look at the commonalities and learned from. It does no one any good to ignore them. That their identities are so tied up in being trans is easy to believe. A few years ago, I started a new job and honest to goodness it took me three years to feel as though I was seen as a worker who happens to be trans rather than a trans person who happens to work there. On the other side of the coin a lot of family rejection stems from trans people at the point of coming out have an identity that is so tied up in not being trans, pronouns, friendships etc...

We know nothing about the long term satisfaction rate of the new cohort of (mostly) teen girls presenting with GD/GI issues.

statsgeek1's posts show they're stuck in the past and are resistant to thinking that perhaps things have moved and are now different. See for example their resistance to reading that the number of UK male prisoners identifying as trans are probably an order of magnitude greater than the amount they are happy with.

ROGDmum

Perhaps you are right. I struggle to explain the increase in the referrals of young girls. I still believe it to be a very small number proportionally when we take into account all under 18's but I can equally see that is of little comfort to you living it.

You are in the unfortunate situation of you can either support something you may not believe in or not support it and run the risk of a broken relationship. I wasn't supported and I haven't seen or spoken to my Mum or any other member of my family (xmt my Dad)in years. I don't imagine I will ever see them again to be honest but, I've grown to accept that because I couldn't bare the alternative. I have a lovely partner and good friends who make up for that.

I really do hope it all works out for you whatever way you guys go. You must be beside yourself at times.

To have a study with statistical validity it would likely require a control group that would consist of a group of people diagnosed with GD but refused treatment and then see how they got on 10, 20 and 30 years down the line. I'm not sure the ethics of that are founded in do no harm.

We already know that around 80% of gender dysphoric children desist after puberty. Why do you want to make sure these children persist and become lifelong medical patients by putting them on puberty blockers?

I've asked you about this several times, and your reply each time could be paraphrased as "it was right for me therefore it will be right for everyone else". This is clearly not true.

"Do no harm" would mean allowing children to go through a normal puberty with mental health support for their distress, and review once they are mature adults.

Nauticant

I don't have a struggle to read the report. The report says that 2% of the 5990 people who returned the survey identified as in some way trans. It didn't make any assumptions that the 2% of 5990 would be the same if all 85000 male prisoners returned a form. We could hypothesize that is the case but without the raw data from all 85000 and supporting data to qualify how they identify its a guess at best. That said 1500 of a population quoted as around 650000 suggests that around 99.7% of trans people are not serving time in jail. Who'd have thought it reading the telegraph article.

I feel for the young de transitioners. I'm not sure my same sympathies lie with the odd desister who never had any treatment, wasn't seen by a GIC and worked out they weren't trans seemingly early in the day working to try and get the treatment for people who are in a different position than her curtailed.

An interesting comment from someone who seems to be completely unable to understand that most gender dysphoric children are not in the same position as them.

Most children desist after puberty. They are not like you.

I am interested in those that de transition though and I feel for them if they were misdiagnosed as I would feel for anyone misdiagnosed with any condition.

What evidence do you have that they were misdiagnosed? The reality is that for most children diagnosed with gender dysphoria, puberty is the cure.

I have no desire to make anyone persist. I have a desire that a small number of children for who transition would be helpful to get the treatment and support they deserve.

I believe it is up to the clinicians in the field to determine those who they feel it would be helpful and certainly not me or even you unless of course you are a clinician in the field. I certainly have no wish to push or force children Ina certain direction. All I can describe is my personal experience, you may not like it or agree with it but it happened and it is what it is. it is clearly not for everyone but my experience is no less or more valid than that of a detransitioner.

Thank you, statsgeek .

'Puberty is the cure'

Is that some form of being cruel to be kind? I'm not sure you'll sell that to the NHS.