The Composition and Demographics of the Growing Trans Population

[Justhadathought]

It seems that every week ( even as reported in just my local tabloid newspaper) the 'transitioning' population increases, and the Transgender Umbrella ( as determined by Stonewall) provides shelter for a very wide range of demographic of people.

Yet it seems to me ( would be interesting to see statistics) that apart from young women ( mainly lesbians) transitioning to male...the largest and most rapidly accelerating group is that of older 'cross dressing' males. Most often heterosexual or married, and quite often having been in, or performed, an archetypal macho or traditionally masculine role or occupation ( been in the military etc).

This is not only as evidenced by the growing number of reports in my local newspaper, but from my own observations on the street and around town: www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/transgender-woman-agreed-cannabis-plot-17604909

I think this was her most pertinent comment in that post:

The prison figures suggested there were around 130 trans people in jail.

You are out by an order of magnitude. It's approximately 1500 transwomen in men's prisons. No one knows how many more might be in women's prisons already.

I was referring to diagnosed transsexual under 18's.

A transsexual is someone who has medically transitioned, that is someone who has sought to alter their body through hormones and/or surgery. You don't diagnose a child as transsexual. You diagnose a child with gender dysphoria and such a child may medically transition to become a transsexual. Preferably in adulthood. Early medical transition is a mechanism that allows most male children who identify as trans to pass better in adulthood. Because as you pointed out earlier, testosterone is such a potent drug, females who identify as trans can achieve a convincing presentation as male in adulthood. Medicalising them in childhood is therefore unnecessary, especially since this is harmful to them.

To think that a condition of this nature can't present and be treated until adulthood is for me a bit short sighted.

We are not suggesting that children cannot present with gender dysphoria. They can. We are in this debate however distinguishing between children who present typically, that is before puberty and those who present long after puberty. Gender dysphoria in homosexual transsexuals presents almost uniformly in the same way and by the same time in childhood before puberty. The largest number of referals are now for children however who present atypically post puberty, and most of them not with longterm distress or a longterm history of gender-non-comformity.

But, that's just my opinion, you'd have to defer to the Tavistock and put that suggestion of just leaving them to it to them. A bit cruel and unusual if you ask me but, maybe you've a point.

This is disingenuous. Watchful Waiting does not equate to leaving them to it and doing nothing. It is a treatment protocol that seeks to alleviate distress through a number of techniques, including psychological counselling.

Unlike the affirmation model, this approach simply holds the door open for desistance without having to undo a medical transition while at the same time ensuring that when these patients do wish to transition they can do so at a later date in adulthood.

Not seeing you engage with the fact that the Chief of Prisons said that 1 in 50 male prisoners are claiming to be trans?

Do you have a link to there being 1500 trans women in prison in the UK? That's quite a jump from the figures I had heard previously. I'm not casting a doubt just interested to see a source.

Unlike the affirmation model

Which also frequently ignores or glosses over comorbid mental health issues.

Not handy no. If no one else posts it I'll try to dig it out later. It definitely was said by someone high up in the Prisons Service.

Do you have a link to there being 1500 trans women in prison in the UK?

Did it occur to you to use a search engine before asking?

I typed "1500 trans women in prison in the UK" into an anonymised google search and six of the first seven links that came up were news stories about the relevant survey.

Can you point me to the bit of the EA to say the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' refers only to those in possession of a GRC.

This is not what I am saying, please do not infer something that isn't there.

When discussing whether a person has the right to access opposite-sex provisions, the relevant protected characteristic is sex not gender reassignment. That's why out of all the males who identify as trans, only those with a GRC must be considered for inclusion.

What you are presenting here as the law, is called Stonewall law by us on the forefront of this debate. It's the law Stonewall is advocating for and it's the way Stonewall has been misrepresenting the law to organisations, but it isn't the actual law.

HTH

Do you have a link to there being 1500 trans women in prison in the UK? That's quite a jump from the figures I had heard previously. I'm not casting a doubt just interested to see a source.

LMGTFY
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/

One in 50 male offenders in prisons are self-identifying as transgender, according to a survey by the official jail watchdog, amid concerns inmates may be attempting to secure extra perks.

The figure, the first by the watchdog, suggests there are up to 1,500 transgender inmates among the 90,000 prisoners in England and Wales, more than ten times previous estimates, and at least four times the number in the general population.

I'm a little surprised that you are unable to do your own simple searches for information on the internet.

@Charleyparley

Our views on the pathway for trans children clearly differ. I respect your view but I don't agree with it. I still believe that the numbers are minuscule, 99.98% of under 18's in the UK do not present with symptoms associated with GD. Of those that do, it is often repeated on here that 80% of that 0.02% don't get diagnosed and effectively desist. So we are then left with a figure that is likely to be in the hundreds who go to a puberty blocker and eventually cross sex hormones. I believe to deny that few hundred distressed children half a chance at a life un blighted by societies discomfort with trams people is both cruel and unusual. That said, I understand and respect your position too but that is a long way from agreeing with it.

I hadn't heard that! That is good news. Do you have a link to the correspondence?

It was mentioned in the women's services report by Women and Girls in Scotland. I'll go see if I can find it, allmywhat.

(off the back of a smokes packet)

You can do a bit better than that statsgeek1

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/number-of-british-people-seeking-to-change-their-gender-soars-a7130006.html

www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2866

In our survey, 2% of prisoners in adult male prisons identified themselves as transgender or transsexual.

HM Chief Inspector of Prisons for England and Wales
Annual Report 2018–19

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/814689/hmip-annual-report-2018-19.pdf

The telegraph aren't known for their balanced reporting on trans issues. I would preferably like to see a statement of fact from the prison service. I don't doubt there may be 1500 but I can't take the Telegraph as gospel sadly.

it is often repeated on here that 80% of that 0.02% don't get diagnosed and effectively desist

No, 80% of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria desist. Empirical data and longitudinal studies suggest an even higher percentage, but 80% is a good average.

We have no data on how many undiagnosed children desist. How could we?

Nauticant

Thank you, that's the sort of thing I was looking for.

Of those that do, it is often repeated on here that 80% of that 0.02% don't get diagnosed and effectively desist.

In fact, no one said this. As a "stats geek," when you don't know what people are talking about, you should request clarification instead of assuming. But it seems that the problem is that you don't know that you don't know what people are talking about. That's much harder to fix.

Thank you, that's the sort of thing I was looking for.

And again, as a "stats geek" you should be capable, upon reading a newspaper article, of finding the scientific publication or report that the article is based on all by yourself without anyone holding your hand.

It took me about 30 seconds allmywhat. But that's because I wanted to find it.

Do you have a link to there being 1500 trans women in prison in the UK? That's quite a jump from the figures I had heard previously. I'm not casting a doubt just interested to see a source

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/

The telegraph aren't known for their balanced reporting on trans issues.

Yes, I know you prefer Pink News or unsubstantiated rumours posted by someone on twitter.

The article referred to the report linked by nauticant. You really ought to learn to do simple internet searches to find your own information.

statsgeek1

1. If you are going to @ me, please spell my name right or you're sending a notification of your post to the wrong person.

1. I'm right here, no need to @ me at all. How about just bolding my name with * instead of the @?

1. I must object to your persistent misrepresentation of my view. Is this wilfully ignoring what I say or a problem with your reading comprehension?

I am not suggesting ignoring any child's distress. Watchful Waiting, which is still considered the best international practice in treating gender dysphoria in the child patient, does not deny children treatment of their distress and it does not deny them "half a life unblighted by societies' discomfort with trans people". It seeks to ensure that they can live a full life, unblighted by iatrogenic harm.

1. This is Mumsnet. I'm afraid arguing that we shouldn't worry about potential harm coming to children, because the children in question are few in number and we should just leave it to the professionals and authorities to guard their wellbeing will not fly here. Professionals and authorities have failed to safeguard far too many children for this argument to hold much sway with us.

I believe to deny that few hundred distressed children half a chance at a life un blighted by societies discomfort with trams people is both cruel and unusual

This statement presumes that being born in the wrong body is an actual thing; rather than an expression of distress with one's self; one's life and one's role in it. Many of us here work in mental health services of one sort or other, and/or are or have been teachers - as well, of course, as being parents and grandparents.

I think it rather cruel and unusual to frame a child's distress in such a way that could lead to irrevocable surgical practice, and the use of powerful hormones on a growing body and mind.

Side thought - the first trans man I knew, I first read as 'boyish lesbian'. I wonder if we're so used to women in trousers etc etc etc that we don't automatically reach the same conclusion as we do when clearly seeing a member of the male sex in wig, makeup, skirt etc. Add broken voice, beard & flat chest and I do think we're more likely to think 'shortish bloke' rather than 'trans man'. So are trans men passing far more readily or just being read as such, hence the impression that there are more trans women than trans men?

Need my coffee and cake, brain aches now ...

Charlie

That's a fair comment, I spelt your name wrong. It won't happen again.