The Composition and Demographics of the Growing Trans Population

[Justhadathought]

It seems that every week ( even as reported in just my local tabloid newspaper) the 'transitioning' population increases, and the Transgender Umbrella ( as determined by Stonewall) provides shelter for a very wide range of demographic of people.

Yet it seems to me ( would be interesting to see statistics) that apart from young women ( mainly lesbians) transitioning to male...the largest and most rapidly accelerating group is that of older 'cross dressing' males. Most often heterosexual or married, and quite often having been in, or performed, an archetypal macho or traditionally masculine role or occupation ( been in the military etc).

This is not only as evidenced by the growing number of reports in my local newspaper, but from my own observations on the street and around town: www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/transgender-woman-agreed-cannabis-plot-17604909

I don't think you are right to infer that 80% of diagnosed transsexuals would simply desist and fade away if they weren't treated. I suspect it may be more accurate to say that 80% of referrals don't get diagnosed and are found out to have a different issue. Going to a GIC is as much about working out what you aren't as it is in trying to diagnose what you are. I guess we are just unlikely to agree on this.

BickeringBrattle thanks for the information about MPD. I'll have to read up about that.

I can't say anything more really, like much of the information presented in the gender debate it was anecdotal, I wasn't there and formed an opinion based on something I was told. I'm willing to accept there are likely going to be two very different sides to that story. That's not unusual is it?

TL;DR lots of former transvestites are coming out as trans women.

Yeah. We know.

I don't think you are right to infer that 80% of diagnosed transsexuals would simply desist and fade away if they weren't treated.

I wasn't talking about diagnosed (adult) transsexuals. I was replying to your post about children. 80% of children who are confused about their gender desist once they've gone through puberty.

an awful lot of trans people or people perceived to be trans using the tube

An awful lot?

Like there is an awful lot of gender critical feminists on mumsnet?

I can't say anything more really, like much of the information presented in the gender debate it was anecdotal

On this side of the debate many of us prefer facts and stats.

I wasn't there and formed an opinion based on something I was told.

I'd want more evidence before repeating something like that.

When you say quite a number of trans people are violent criminals how do you define quite a number.

If we take circa 0.9% of the population may be trans then we could be suggesting a number around 650000. I think that is a bit high to be fair. The prison figures suggested there were around 130 trans people in jail. At the time they only counted people on a significant sentence which was likely to miss out short term prisoners doing time for socio economically driven crime. Of course, significant sentences are generally only handed to violent/sexually motivated criminals. So it is likely there were more trans prisoners than actually counted and it is also possible that the study I'm referring to had some inherent design flaws which could easily have led to a misrepresentation of the true statistics either way.

But at what proportion of a 650,000 population would you describe as quite a number to infer that trans people have more than their fair share of violent criminals? Perceptions fascinate me. I accept trans people seem to offend at a higher rate than women but not anywhere near the prevelance of male (non trans) offenders.

Old Crone

That's a fair assertion about evidence and facts. You could have a positive effect on the level of debate with that attitude. More of it please!

I was referring to diagnosed transsexual under 18's. To think that a condition of this nature can't present and be treated until adulthood is for me a bit short sighted. But, that's just my opinion, you'd have to defer to the Tavistock and put that suggestion of just leaving them to it to them. A bit cruel and unusual if you ask me but, maybe you've a point.

@fieldofgreycorn

You're right about there being a lot of gender critical people on the feminist boards. That isn't a well kept secret. I wouldn't be confident enough to make a sweeping statement that they are all feminists though.

but as it stands the equality act allows for trans women except in rare cases to access those spaces too. That's just the law

It's not. The only males who identify as trans who would even be considered to have a legal right to ask for access to female-only provisions are those in possession of a GRC.

For all others, the comparator for discrimination claims are other males whose legal sex remains male. If it's legal to exclude a man who doesn't identify as trans, it's legal to exclude a man who does identify as trans as a blanket policy. Before excluding males whose legal sex is female however (ie GRC-holders), the provider must consider whether such exclusion is justified.

And under a total of six sex-based exemptions allowing for a great number of female-only legal set asides, the Eqality Act states that yes, even GRC-holders can be excluded from opposite sex facilities, services and provisions.

Furthermore, and just for your information, the Government Equality Office has confirmed in correspondence, that case-by-case justification for exclusion refers to the fact that each use case that is to be offered on a single-sex basis must be justified as legitimate and proportionate not each exclusion of an individual user.

So, to recap: the law allows for the exclusion of all males, regardless of identity, from all female-only legal set asides. Including GRC-holders. As a matter of course, and regularly as well as frequently, not just in rare cases.

Are you sure you're not mistaking policy for the law?

The prison figures suggested there were around 130 trans people in jail.

You are out by an order of magnitude. It's approximately 1500 transwomen in men's prisons. No one knows how many more might be in women's prisons already.

That's a fair assertion about evidence and facts. You could have a positive effect on the level of debate with that attitude. More of it please!

I recognise that very little is to be expected from someone with your level of analytical capabilities who has labelled himself "statsgeek" but I think it's fair to expect better than this. Don't be condescending - it's a very, very bad look on you.

I was referring to diagnosed transsexual under 18's. To think that a condition of this nature can't present and be treated until adulthood is for me a bit short sighted.

I was replying to a post where you said:
I haven't made any claims about who is or is not likely to persist into adulthood. I do know though that forcing a child away from treatment can lead to all sorts of negative consequences.

We were talking about children. I said that it is unethical to give children who present with gender dysphoria drugs to prevent puberty, because 80% will desist after puberty if left to develop normally. On your own admission nobody knows which children fall into the 80% and which are the 20% who will persist.

If you treat them all, for every child who will persist whether treated or not, you are treating 4 children for a condition which will disappear on its own given time.

If we take circa 0.9% of the population may be trans then we could be suggesting a number around 650000.

650,000 (or thereabouts) was the official figure submitted by Gendered Intelligence to the Maria Miller Trans Inquiry in 2015. AFAIK it is based on research that 1% of the population is under the trans umbrella.

When you say quite a number of trans people are violent criminals how do you define quite a number.

Did you post this on the wrong thread? Nobody has said that on this thread.

Are you sure you're not mistaking policy for the law?

It's a common mistake after all. Labour even admitted their trans inclusive AWS policy was "ahead of the law".

TL;DR lots of former transvestites are coming out as trans women.

What do you see as the difference?

the Government Equality Office has confirmed in correspondence, that case-by-case justification for exclusion refers to the fact that each use case that is to be offered on a single-sex basis must be justified as legitimate and proportionate not each exclusion of an individual user.

I hadn't heard that! That is good news. Do you have a link to the correspondence?

Labour even admitted their trans inclusive AWS policy was "ahead of the law".

"Ahead of the law" is also known as "breaking the law". We should abide by the laws which are in place, not the ones we want to be in place, or even those we expect to be passed soon.

Indeed, OldCrone

@Charley

Can you point me to the bit of the EA to say the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' refers only to those in possession of a GRC. You would be correct to state only those with a GRC would be able to use a woman as a comparator for the purposes of sex discrimination.

As I understand it, the excemptions can be applied in a very limited number of cases where the action would be deemed proportionate to achieve a legitimate aim.

Note, I am no saying whether I agree or disagree with it just what it says. What do s likely to be required to challenge it is that a trans woman who has been subjected to say domestic violence or sexual assault be denied service at a refuge.

Unfortunately, the legislation says what it says not what you want it say.

The males without a GRC don't have a special legal right, any more than other males, to be admitted to single sex female spaces. Semantics.

Unfortunately, the legislation says what it says not what you want it say.

It doesn't actually say anything about admitting males to female spaces. The law works on the principle of liberty and fairness in all cases, but exemptions can be used to protect people with all the protected characteristics, not just women or trans people.

Allmywhat

That didn't take long, I am a bit surprised. I hope it made you feel better though.