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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Julie Bindel bullying Posie

409 replies

LiterallyProblematic · 17/01/2020 08:16

FFS! Why did a she have to do this? It’s so divisive and gratuitously mean!
twitter.com/bindelj/status/1217986645871546368?s=20

OP posts:
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LangCleg · 20/01/2020 10:16

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA at the thought of Hooves being presented as an exemplar of the rotten FWR hive mind!

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 10:28

I already said upthread, I can understand how someone may think that the kind of behaviour seen on the transwidows thread shows an inherent selfishness that does not bode well for children. You said so much yourself, didn't you?

Yes I said entering into a relationship dishonestly without disclosing to your partner or kids you have gender dysphoria is not acceptable. Being trans itself isn't the problem it's the dishonestly.

I can also understand how to some people the idea of gaslighting a child from birth that mummy is actually daddy - or vice versa - is not in a child's best interests.

It is this attitude that makes trans people feel ashamed of who they are, thus entering into relationships dishonestly without revealing their dysphoria and causing a whole host of problems for those around them. Much better to be open about it from the beginning surely?

DuMondeB · 20/01/2020 10:48

What exactly makes being transgender incompatible with parenthood? Posters keep making this claim but cannot say why.

We’ve had threads and threads on why, encompassing all kinds of trans and all sorts of reasons, including surrogacy. Some posts have been made by the children of transitioners.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3688952-Seahorse-BBC2-now

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3496126-Mermaids-power-couple-Hannah-Jake-Graf-say-surrogacy-laws-must-be-changed-to-force-women-to-hand-over-babies

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3635936-children-of-transitioners

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3792431-Usbourne-publishing-calling-mums-transphobes

Personally, I think it’s probably compatible in some cases, but children must be allowed to know and to talk about the truth of their birth. This is also my opinion for all adoptions/donor IVF children/children with an absent parent regardless of family make up. Cheap access to simple gene tests through commercial entertainment sites mean that secrecy around these issues will be impossible to keep anyway.

I’m against surrogacy full stop (I accept that the law might not be able to do much to prevent some family-family cases).

DuMondeB · 20/01/2020 10:50

This is an excellently written resource: childrenoftransitioners.org/

——————

Perhaps OP could ask for a thread title change, seeing as this thread ceased to be about Julie’s tweet very early on?

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 10:57

I think it’s probably compatible in some most cases, but children must be allowed to know and to talk about the truth of their birth. This is also my opinion for all adoptions/donor IVF children/children with an absent parent regardless of family make up.

I absolutely agree.

Needmoresleep · 20/01/2020 11:21

Sappho, making blanket decisions without discussion leaves the door open for all sorts of problems.

The decision in Rotherham not to pursue know sex offenders because of "community relations" was disastrous, not just for the girl victims, but I suspect many in those communities themselves.

A few years back I used to run into a nice middle aged lady who was in the process of being approved for adoption, and who would give me updates and we would discuss parenting. She was single and lesbian, and had enough resources to cut down on her work hours. Important as she was likely to adopt an older child, probably one who, because of previous trauma, needed to be in an all female home.

My overriding thought were how brave and how noble (an odd word, but right in this context). I no longer bump into her but really hope it is working out. In this context her being lesbian was a positive, and the fact that she was happy to talk openly to relatively strangers, suggested she rightly assumed societal acceptance.

More recently I have wondered what would happen if a similarly aged single person, a recent M-F transitioner tried to go down the same route, perhaps insisting that they had the same "rights" as other lesbians. However much adults can believe that TWAW are women, it is a concept that can be hard to explain to small children, people with dementia (I have some direct experience, as my mother lived with dementia for a decade, which makes for a funny anecdote probably not suitable for this board) and dogs. It would be a difficult dilemma for a social worker, who might be concerned that policy makers would respond in the same way as those in Rotherham, ie take the safer political path.

Trans parenting also raises issues around surrogacy (a whole issue in itself), around minors transitioning, and thus giving up their capacity to have children naturally, and NHS resources and priorities.

Society views evolve. Lesbian parents, at least where I live, are nothing unusual or remarkable. They would have been, perhaps 30 years ago. 30 years ago there was raging discussion and I suspect that was important. Airing concerns, and prejudices, enabled them to be addressed and for people to accept. Expecting people to simply believe something and then accusing them of hate if they try to raise concerns simply drives opinions underground. And quite possibly into the hands of politicians willing to voice these views. (A wonderful woman I know was a supporter of Tommy Robinson. She had been seriously abused in childhood and was very triggered by Rotherham. A good example of someone who is a natural labour supporter but probably put her faith in Priti Patel.)

#nodebate was arrogant and wrong. Self-ID is a big issue. Women not only have a right to debate their right to privacy, safety and dignity, but will want to prioritise the protection of children. For Stonewall to go behind our backs, and into our schools is scandalous. No wonder we are angry. Oddly I suspect that on an individual level women are more accepting of trans people than men. However we have a right to discuss issues and assert boundaries. Almost certainly there are circumstances where the safety of women and children should be prioritised over a desire to validate the identity of a TW.

DuMondeB · 20/01/2020 11:24

I think the cases that are more likely to negatively impact children are actually the AGP late transitioners, rather than the transmen, as long as they don’t try and deny their biological relationship via the child’s birth certificate.
The more we learn about the way we inherit susceptibility to disease from our parents, the more important accurate birth records will be.

As someone who was fortunate enough to inherit the non-faulty X chromosome of my mother’s pair, I have first hand experience of genetic counselling and how empowering that knowledge can be.

moderate · 20/01/2020 11:44

It is the LEFT who created the vacuum into which Posie stepped. If the LEFT doesn’t like her, is fearful of what she may be bringing about, then maybe the LEFT needs to have a re-think.

But what is wrong with someone who is both GC and on "the LEFT" pointing out both the failings of "the LEFT" and the (different) failings of Posie Parker?

Needmoresleep · 20/01/2020 12:07

Sappho, the poster hearhoovesthinkzebras is a good example of a poster who appeared to come here to create divisions rather than to contribute constructively.

Posie, and Caro, seem to attract a disproportionate amount of criticism from new posters like zebras, generating a sense that some people like to see women divided. Left, right, whatever, whatever, self ID is an issue for all women. We are not the same, and we can all be criticised. Which does not mean that we cannot still applaud the achievements of both Posie and Julie.

We can also point out their failings, however the likelihood that zebras and friends will then pounce acts as a deterrent. Better to focus on the positives of which there are many.

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 13:03

More recently I have wondered what would happen if a similarly aged single person, a recent M-F transitioner tried to go down the same route, perhaps insisting that they had the same "rights" as other lesbians.

You do realise that transgender people have exactly the same rights to adopt as anyone else? There isn't some LGBT hierarchy where lesbians are seen as preferable to trans women.

Needmoresleep · 20/01/2020 13:17

Yes. But the focus needs to be the suitability of a particular adoptive parent for a particular child. If a child needs to be placed with a woman, the is a discussion to be had about how this child might perceive a TW and the impact this might have.

The point being that things are not black and white. Certainly with adoption, the needs of a child should trump all including LGBT rights or PC orthodoxies. It may be that a TM adopter might be preferable to a male.

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 13:27

Yes of course the match much be right and the age and needs of the child taken into consideration. A high proportion of trans women have had mental health problems which wouldn't automatically rule them out but would make the process a lot harder for them.

Needmoresleep · 20/01/2020 13:45

Adoption by people with MH issues is always bound to be problematic whether trans or not.

My point is more child centred. If it is agreed that a child is better placed in a female household, would adoption agencies have to accept TWAW even if they believe the child is likely to perceive the TW as male.

I am not suggesting that the TW would not be suitable to adopt other children, or make a good adoptive parent. Just that a traumatised child should have their needs prioritised. And authorities be allowed to recognise that in some circumstances sex trumps gender.

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 14:01

From what I know about adoptions the needs of the child are always centered, and rightly so.

LangCleg · 20/01/2020 14:04

From what I know about adoptions the needs of the child are always centered, and rightly so

Then why, every single time somebody brings up the best interests of the child, do you return it to the wants of the parents?

I honestly don't think you even know you're doing it.

Goosefoot · 20/01/2020 14:08

That "gender assignment" doesn't require physical transition doesn't mean that the protected category isn't gender reassignment. I can't follow what the logic is there.

BovaryX · 20/01/2020 14:17

Lang and needmore

I notice neither of your excellent questions were answered by JP. Lang, I should think you are beyond exasperated. If the Labour party continues this trajectory, they will continue to lose elections

Goosefoot · 20/01/2020 14:19

It's always interesting to me that adoption itself is coming under more scrutiny among child welfare advocates. Not that they generally think it should be disallowed, but more and more their are questions about it's real effect on children. And not in terms of some statistical measure of "success". Certainly international adoption is coming under significant scrutiny both in terms of the potential for corruption and dishonesty, and in terms of the direct effect on the child of being effectively severed from their roots, any extended family, etc.

Somehow that kind of child-centered discussion hasn't quite made it to looking at other types of reproductive technologies, or other ways children could be severed from their roots.

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 14:20

LangCleg there isn't an automatic disconnect between centering the needs of the child and the parents wants. That is surely what makes a successful adoption?!

In the case of LGBT parenting centering the needs of the child involve the adult's ability to provide love, care, attention, stability etc etc.

Being gay or trans is irrelevant unless it is in some way directly linked to the parent's ability to centre the needs of the child.

HorseWithNoTimeForThis · 20/01/2020 14:27

... A high proportion of trans women have had mental health problems...

Do you think that gender dysphoria itself is a mental health problem?

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 14:50

Do you think that gender dysphoria itself is a mental health problem?

Nope. Do you? The NHS certainly doesn't.

Needmoresleep · 20/01/2020 15:53

Sapphos, I notice that you conflate LGB with T.

Do you agree that sexuality is different from gender? And then that sex and gender are different?

Would you then agree that adoption authorities, if there is a need, should be able to base an adoption decision on sex rather than gender?

I keep drilling down, but it is important that it is understood that devil is in the detail. For most purposes people should be able to live as the gender they choose - though I would prefer it to be through broadening male and female stereotypes rather than people having to feel they need to take hormones and undertake surgery. However there are times when rights clash. Society needs to discuss in order to determine a reasonable solution that, above all protects
the most vulnerable. (And here I would include transpeople with MH problems.) I am pretty sure that if the debate were more open, most people would agree that in some circumstances single sex protections are important.

Stonewall is a lobbying organisation. It represents just one section of society. It is an important voice in any society-wide discussion, but should not be the only voice. Nor should it be able to demand #nodebate.

So well done Posie for bringing the debate out into the open. You may not be perfect, and some people clearly hate you for what you have achieved. I would take the hostility as a sign of you having achieved something.

LangCleg · 20/01/2020 16:09

I notice neither of your excellent questions were answered by JP.

Of course they weren't. Purblindness is a hell of a drug.

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 16:24

Do you agree that sexuality is different from gender? And then that sex and gender are different?

Of course

Would you then agree that adoption authorities, if there is a need, should be able to base an adoption decision on sex rather than gender?

Entirely depends on the circumstances and would be case by case. If a FTM trans man had a GRC and had fully transitioned to a man it would seem strange to base the adoption decision on the parent being female.

Not sure why we're discussing adoption anyway, did Posie say something about it? I am sure that if the needs of the child were being centered and the choice was a loving parent who happened to be transgender or a children's home then the child would be best places with a transgender parent.

You don't hear much about trans people adopting through do you, I don't think it's very common at all.

Coyoacan · 20/01/2020 16:26

SapphosRock, what kind of problem is "gender dysphoria" then?

Or are you saying it isn't a problem? which would be news for the people who suffer from it.

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