Not Fitting in with 'Feminine' Women?

[albertatrilogy]

I go to a dance class where, by and large, men lead and women follow. There are fewer male leads than female follows.

In my working life women tend to be quite comfortably and casually dressed, because of the nature of the job. So not a lot of fashionable gear, definitely no heels etc. And I feel comfortable with them.

At dance class I am struggling withe feelings of being a bit of misfit. I absolutely love the dance itself and am a reasonable dancer. But I struggle with the kind of performance of femininity that a lot of the women I attend the class with seem to enjoy. (I feel more like one of the blokes, despite being female and normally dancing the 'follow' part.)

I even find myself wishing the women wouldn't dress smartly for what is mainly an exercise class - because it makes me feel like I'm not one of them. And/or it makes me wish that I was the sort of person who liked putting on lippy on a Sunday night.

It's weird because in most environments I feel much more comfortable with women than men. But not in this class. (Perhaps it's because a lot of the men are around my age. And though they are mostly dancing 'lead', they're not terribly bossy - with the odd exception.) They are being learners, making mistakes, apologising if they get a move wrong etc.

Does anyone else struggle in similar situations? I sometimes feel like the awkward 13 year old at the school disco, while the other girls are laughing in a pack.

I always feel like that awkward 13 year old. I notice quite a few people deciding they are autistic based on this but I think quite a large proportion of the population feel like this and are either just introverts or just don’t enjoy social expectations. That is why many people like to drink in social settings - to make themselves feel more relaxed.

If there are fewer men, could you take on their dancing role for the dance class? Then you wouldn’t have to dress so ‘dressy’.

I feel like that in just about any situation where I don’t know people. Even waiting for the DC in the school playground. I’m tall and fat and am a SAHM so am not generally very well dressed or made up.

Mostly I just try and make myself invisible but that doesn’t really work with dancing...

OP, would you be happier in an exercise dance class rather than what sounds like formal ballroom dancing?
And you really don’t have to conform to a sexist stereotype of “femininity” just to fit in with others who do, even if they’re the majority - you are entitled to simply be yourself. I doubt the others are judging you for it - they’re probably too busy concentrating on the dance steps - but if they are being sneery, then they’re not the kind of people you’d want to interact with socially anyway.
Please have the confidence to be yourself - we’ll never break these sexist patterns if we just go along with them!

I think feeling like an awkward 13yo is normal - if it’s not, I’m in trouble!

I have some empathy OP, as I am not a “girly girl”; I don’t wear makeup or style my hair or wear high heels whereas many of my colleagues do. But they’re no better or worse employees than I am for choosing to spend more time on personal grooming than I do, and vice versa. If the women in your group aren’t actively making you uncomfortable with comments or looks etc then I’d put it down to a difference in personal style, both equally valid.

Unlike a PP I don’t think you need to take on the leader role unless you really want to as a means of improving your dancing, as it suggests you can only be a follower if you dress in a stereotypically feminine way. Do any of the dressy women ever lead if there’s a shortage of men?

sounds fine to me. femininity Is a performance role that some women (and some men) find it comfortable to occupy, and some don't. there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a personality that doesn't really fit into that role and it doesn't make you any less womanly.

I doubt anyone is laughing at you though. people mostly aren't thinking about you enough to notice whether or not you are conforming to gender expectations, and most of those who do notice won't care, and anyone who does care and is critical is not worth being friends with anyway so there's nothing to worry about.

personally I would prefer a dance class where there weren't gendered steps at all, and everyone follows the same choreography. if there was some reason I had to go to a class with gendered steps I'd be going along in jeans and DMs and would learn the blokes steps if I fancied doing so (without claiming to be a man, cos I'm not, but cultural/conventional rules for what people of different sexes ought to do are not illegal to break)

I know it feels weird being the odd one out but has anyone said or done anything to make you feel uncomfortable? Because from what you've said so far (and I appreciate I'm not there) it sounds like the only person here judging women by their appearance is you.

It's swing dance which is a bit less stereotyped/more relaxed than ballroom. So I do dance lead sometimes - usually at beginners classes.

I think one of the issues is that when I dance follow which is more often, that my partners are mostly male. So I end up getting to know the men better than the women. Whereas in ordinary life/social situations I'd probably tend to gravitate towards other women....

Also I like the skills involved in partner dancing.

There are classes which are consciously trying to break down the stereotypes - encouraging more men to follow. There is even a Queer Lindy festival in Sweden. But I think it partly depends on the teachers. Our teachers are brilliant dance teachers - it's a male/female couple. But the bloke is slightly old school at times...

Oh, and I don't exactly think I'm judging. I think it's more being aware of difference.

I notice the men too. They mostly wear grungy old T-shirts and baggy trousers/old jeans. Just a few of them are more consciously stylish. Nice shirts/smart trousers/fancy shoes/styled hair/a bit of cologne.

Whereas with the women it's the reverse. The majority - especially the younger ones - fashionably dressed. It's the few older ones like me who are a bit more casual. (So there may be a generational issue - second-wave feminism in decline - where there's more pressure on younger women to dress up. Though this pressure to dressing up is marketed as/perceived as personal choice/empowerment.)

If you're not judging why use the phrase 'performing feminity' to describe women who wear fashionable clothes and make up?

Lots of women on FWR enjoy gendered pursuits but I have never, ever seen baking or quilting referred to on here as a performance, or any discussion about whether it might be a response to conditioning.

I'm out of here now as I don't want to derail your thread but I'm a second wave feminist who enjoys clothes, and sometimes make up too, and I've been patronised because of it for 40 odd years.

It crosses my mind that you might be going for exercise purposes, but that some of the younger women might also be hoping to meet men?

I’ve often been a misfit. I’ve given up caring what anyone else thinks. I dress for me. What is it that makes you uncomfortable? Do you feel people will judge you?

Do they dress more femininely because it makes the dance more (for want of a better word) swooshy? Ie, it's enhancing the experience for them?

I'm not even slightly feminine - I don't think I even own a skirt/dress any more, but I can imagine that if I was doing some kind of dance class that I might buy a suitable skirt just because it's a kind of uniform that would match what I was doing - like wearing running tights to go on park run - not necessary, but fitting for the purpose.

I think it's maybe more a generational thing. I used to dance salsa a lot. The younger women were often out to impress, as were a few of the older ones, but generally the older ones made some effort, but in line with who they were. I spoke to some men about it and they really couldn't care less what she was wearing, for the most part, they just wanted to dance with good dancers! I wouldn't worry about what you wear, as long as you're approachable and enjoy dancing.

And I also had MANY male friends from that scene and fewer women. But it's natural if you go to dance, rather than stand at the sides and chat, because you spend almost all your time with men.

You may feel out of place next to some of the other women, but I think that's probably your insecurity showing through - which I also find the dance scene can exacerbate for people, so it's normal. If you enjoy the dance, try to forget about everything other than doing more of it and improving.

It crosses my mind that you might be going for exercise purposes, but that some of the younger women might also be hoping to meet men?

Good point - how often do we see "start a new hobby / join a dance class" recommended as a way for people to meet prospective new partners?

Because from what you've said so far (and I appreciate I'm not there) it sounds like the only person here judging women by their appearance is you

Indeed. Compounded by your later comments sneering at personal choice.

I think it depends on whether or not you approach swing dancing as exercise or as a socio-cultural activity, both of which are equally valid.

If it is being approached as a socio-cultural activity eg. re-enacting a 1940s dance hall, then it is likely to involve more gendered clothing and etiquette because that is more authentic.

I love to dance and I've tried to go to various types of dance classes over the years, but have mostly given up because I feel very self-conscious and like I'm sticking out. It's my own personal issue due to my childhood experiences, but like you I tend to be fairly casually dressed and the other women are always in their best outfits with make-up and accessories... Even on a Tuesday evening! I've always wondered how such women do it and feel a twinge of envy and feelings of inadequacy even though logically I know this doesn't make me 'less' of a woman in any way. It's a deeply emotional response. I'm usually rushing from work in my jeans and trainers, grabbing a bite to eat and so on by the time I turn up with my hair in all directions and feeling the sweat running down my back from being late.

I can understand if it's a one-off thing or a weekend as sometimes they have open sessions at the end of the class so it's understandable that many women would like to be dressed up for that. I occasionally like to dress up too, but it takes a lot of planning and preparation on my part, like a few hours.

I also struggle to control my body movements as well as listening to verbal instructions at the same time. I have genuine issues telling my left side from right, so while everyone seems to be moving in sync with the teacher, I'm at the back getting increasingly frustrated and uncoordinated. Probably the others have attended dozens of classes by the time I join so they feel more comfortable with the movements. I find non-autistics seem to 'pick' things up very quickly whether instructions or social conventions and fill in any gaps easily. It's ironic because when I'm dancing on my own outside of any class environment, everyone comments that I'm a very good dancer and even instructors have commented on my natural rythym. My dancing is very freestyle and incorporates different genres that I've picked up over the years, yet I cannot for the life of me deal with classes. Takes me a lot time with a lot of repetition, yet instructors do a few practice sessions of very complex, choreographed moves and keep introducing new stuff when I haven't even got the hang of the first set of steps!

Unlike you, I also find it hard to socialise with women and feel awkward around them, so that makes the whole experience more stressful since there are breaks and downtime and everyone gravitates to their little social circle, while I stand around looking like a lemon and picking the lint off my clothes.
I've always wanted to get into Lindy hop and related dances, but have been put off by the social aspect of it. Went to a couple of taster sessions. Very talkative, bubbly people. Everyone knows everyone else. The thing that unsettled me the most was the constant switching around of partners. I don't like unpredictable change like that. I prefer to dance with one person on a regular basis so that I get to understand their rhythm and mannerisms and can adapt my learning around their cues. In the swing dancing stuff, one minute I'll be dancing with someone my height, and the next with someone who is 6'5. And everyone is all cheery and 'Hi what's your name?' and then they are off to the next person and I've forgotten their name already like the previous ten that have zoomed past.

Sorry I don't mean to post so much, but wanted to say that I understand a bit about the awkwardness around dance classes. It might be easier once you are good friends with some of the attendees, but I'm the last person to know how to go about doing that.

Thanks to all. I didn't expect to be put down on a feminism thread. Because I think it is a feminist issue that most men think they're acceptable in informal casual clothes, but most women only accept themselves when more dressed up. I think it's probably true that for some of the women going the socialising is particularly important and dressing up a bit is part of that. Whereas I'm more seeing it in terms of fitness. For a social dance I'd dress up a bit more, as that is rather more performative...

Because I think it is a feminist issue that most men think they're acceptable in informal casual clothes, but most women only accept themselves when more dressed up.

The issue here is that you don't know this is the only way the other women can accept themselves. It might be the one night a week they dress up, it might be the clothes etc of the period that was a major attraction for them, or it might just be their preferred style.

I do appreciate that our clothing and makeup choices aren't made in a vacuum and we are socialised to look decorative, but that doesn't mean every woman you encounter who chooses to manage their personal grooming differently to you is a slave to the patriarchy.

People are getting a bit defensive of femininity here....weird. And I put a lot of time and effort into looking feminine

But let’s be honest with ourselves, performing femininity takes a lot of time, money and headspace (speaking as someone who has spent the last 2 days researching retinol). People who don’t do it can spend those resources on something else. Either is OK, but examining our motives and feelings about this is a perfectly relevant topic for an FWR thread

Oh, and I can pretty much guarantee that the feminine women feel like 13 year olds too! It could be that their costume gives them confidence?

Dance is not primarily about fitness.

Thanks to all. I didn't expect to be put down on a feminism thread
You mean you didn't expect anything other than validation of your view.

Basically you don't like femininity and you think women who do are brainwashed into it.

You joined a dance class where clearly part of the attraction for the other women is the element of dressing up. You don't like that. None of the other women seem to have done or said anything except dress in a way you as a "feminist" don't approve of.

I think it's probably true that for some of the women going the socialising is particularly important and dressing up a bit is part of that

I'm sure it is- and who are you to belittle that? You come across as patronising and judgemental- unlike the other women attending the class.

People are getting a bit defensive of femininity here....weird

It's not weird at all. The OP is just one of the many posters who appear on here going on about how they are so impervious to "performing femininity" unlike other unenlightened women.

unlike the other women attending the class

Cor, psychic powers now

Any criticism of femininity or examination of the motives behind conforming to it does seem to roast some people’s chestnuts

Conform to femininity if that’s what you want to do (it’s what I do), but it requires significant effort, so maybe put some thought into why you are spending your scarce resources this way?