Not Fitting in with 'Feminine' Women?

[albertatrilogy]

I go to a dance class where, by and large, men lead and women follow. There are fewer male leads than female follows.

In my working life women tend to be quite comfortably and casually dressed, because of the nature of the job. So not a lot of fashionable gear, definitely no heels etc. And I feel comfortable with them.

At dance class I am struggling withe feelings of being a bit of misfit. I absolutely love the dance itself and am a reasonable dancer. But I struggle with the kind of performance of femininity that a lot of the women I attend the class with seem to enjoy. (I feel more like one of the blokes, despite being female and normally dancing the 'follow' part.)

I even find myself wishing the women wouldn't dress smartly for what is mainly an exercise class - because it makes me feel like I'm not one of them. And/or it makes me wish that I was the sort of person who liked putting on lippy on a Sunday night.

It's weird because in most environments I feel much more comfortable with women than men. But not in this class. (Perhaps it's because a lot of the men are around my age. And though they are mostly dancing 'lead', they're not terribly bossy - with the odd exception.) They are being learners, making mistakes, apologising if they get a move wrong etc.

Does anyone else struggle in similar situations? I sometimes feel like the awkward 13 year old at the school disco, while the other girls are laughing in a pack.

I know it’s not the point of the thread, but I really dislike the term ‘performing femininity’

There’s nothing inherently wrong with being feminine. It’s not worse than being masculine, even though that’s what society tells us.

Either is OK, but examining our motives and feelings about this is a perfectly relevant topic for an FWR thread

Of course it is, but when it is predicated on assumptions being made about an actual group of women who have, so far as has been established to date, have done nothing offensive to the OP other than dress and make themselves up differently to her, it feels more judgemental than if we were just discussing the socialisation of women to perform femininity in more abstract terms.

From what you've said, the clothes that other women wear seem to play a large part in whether or not you feel comfortable with them. Is this right?

I even find myself wishing the women wouldn't dress smartly for what is mainly an exercise class -

You called it a dance class. You joined an existing class. You don't like the fact most of the women are dressing up and treating it as a social exercise and you want them to change to accommodate you.

unlike the other women attending the class
Cor, psychic powers now

The OP has I think said the other women have not done or said anything to make her feel uncomfortable. No psychic power needed.

Iknow it’s not the point of the thread, but I really dislike the term ‘performing femininity’

Someone will be along soon to say it's just a descriptive term- no judgement intended (ha ha)

What's interesting about the term is it was coined by Judith Butler who a couple of years ago explained that many radical feminists had completely misunderstood what she was saying.

It sounds like you are pre judging a lot of your fellow women in a negative manner, because you feel uncomfortable or unconfident in yourself.

I know it’s not the point of the thread, but I really dislike the term ‘performing femininity’

There’s nothing inherently wrong with being feminine. It’s not worse than being masculine, even though that’s what society tells us

That’s really interesting and a good example of male being the default and female being an add on. Very good point, and taken!

I think being female (sex) is biological. I think femininity (gender) is sociological/cultural. I think that masculinity is also performance - e.g. putting on a 'stiff upper lip', feeling compelled to join in with laddish banter in order to be accepted as part of a team.

In terms of what I'd hoped for from the thread - there have already been some insightful comments already - I suppose that I'd think within feminism we could discuss a bit about the how and why of why some other women - however pleasant and friendly - can nonetheless make us feel inwardly not quite comfortable.

Obviously one analysis might be that I am extremely insecure - happy to admit to the odd insecurity, but I reckon I do have adequate social skills.

Another might be that I am simply unpleasant and judgemental. But it's not an analysis that I totally buy into.... (Though it could be that I've wandered to AIBU, by mistake!)

I suppose that I'd think within feminism we could discuss a bit about the how and why of why some other women - however pleasant and friendly - can nonetheless make us feel inwardly not quite comfortable

Pot/ kettle springs to mind. Do you ever consider you may well have the same effect? As Floisme commented I've had experience of being patronised by women who seem to think wearing a pretty dress reduces your IQ.

I suppose that I'd think within feminism we could discuss a bit about the how and why of why some other women - however pleasant and friendly - can nonetheless make us feel inwardly not quite comfortable.

Obviously one analysis might be that I am extremely insecure - happy to admit to the odd insecurity, but I reckon I do have adequate social skills.

Having good social skills doesn't preclude a lack of self-confidence in other areas. If the fact that these women choose to dress in a more traditionally/stereotypically feminine way discomfits you, then I'd say the issue is with your inner confidence in some way. If you were 100% secure in your choice of your presentation to the world, then why would you feel uncomfortable because someone else presents differently? You'd either recognise that their choices don't reflect on you, or you might, if more negative/judgemental, feel superior to them - that they still 'need' something you have outgrown.

Yes OP women can wear feminine clothes because they've been socialised that as women we must be attractive at all times.
However I also think that clothes are a form of art and expression I am a feminist who lives expressing my love of colour and pattern in my clothing and Jewellery.
We as a species are driven want to keep the species going so dressing in a way to attract a mate is not wrong either.
If it becomes someone's whole purpose in life or they put themselves in pain or discomfort then I would question why they need to do it and would men need to.

I think if your sense of clothing or mannerisms or hobbies or whatever are different from the people around you, then it will undoubtedly cause some level of anxiety and self-consciousness regardless of the situation. Depending on how comfortable you are with yourself and with sticking out in a crowd, this can make the anxiety or discomfort increase / decrease.

Some of it can be situational, like feeling underdressed at a dance class or fancy restaurant, or even overdressed if everyone else around you is casual.
If you are usually used to not standing out and blending in with your peers, then such situations can feel very unsettling.

Some people experience a lifetime of not really fitting in. In some ways this can make things a little easier in the sense that any discomfort doesn't come as a surprise, but it can still be stressful unless you have learned to feel quite at ease with yourself.

I strongly suspect most people learn from a young age that one of the best ways to avoid the discomfort that comes from sticking out is by copying what your peers do. That's the core of socialisation. Men unconsciously modify their behaviour, clothing etc to fit in with other men and women do the same with other women. That's why many women will turn up similarly dressed to an event and quickly pick up on what is and isn't acceptable to wear or do in certain settings based on what everybody else is doing even though no one has actually made any rules. We are a social species and will automatically mimic those around us, especially if you add in the element of mating and the social conventions around sexual attraction. And the younger you are, the more prone you are to this subtle mimicking.

I suppose the two options for you are:

• Be as you are and tolerate the unpleasant feeling of being in the minority / being different. If you are deriving a lot of fun from the dancing and the socialising, then it's only an hour or two of discomfort a week. Since you are otherwise comfortable around women and it seems this is a situational thing, then learning to tolerate the unpleasant feelings and enjoying yourself in spite of them is a good strategy.
• Otherwise, as the saying goes, if you can't beat them, join them. If you dress up similarly, it might help put you at ease since you won't feel like you are standing out. It need not be as fancy as the others, but you can think about what sort of things bring out feelings of being 'dressed up'. Smart shoes that look a little funky or sparkly along with a slightly formal looking blouse might make you feel a little glamorous even if you still have your hair tied back and no makeup. So that could be a good compromise.

Again, you'll have to figure out what works best for you without feeling like you are pretending or not being yourself.

But let’s be honest with ourselves, performing femininity takes a lot of time, money and headspace (speaking as someone who has spent the last 2 days researching retinol). People who don’t do it can spend those resources on something else. Either is OK, but examining our motives and feelings about this is a perfectly relevant topic for an FWR thread

You know, it really doesn't particularly take more time and energy, if it's just looking feminine. If someone isn't used to dressing a particular way, sure, it might take longer to figure out what to wear, or you want to get spa type facial treatments, or a high maintenance hairstyle, but you can be very feminine, and even seem relatively dressed up, without any of those things. I often present as "feminine" and people will even think I looked dressed up because I like dresses and skirts, but it doesn't take me longer to get ready than days wen I wear yoga pants or jeans, an it's not more expensive.

My personal rules
Let people wear what they like
don't make assumptions about someone's mind , values or thoughts because of how they dress

I have female and male friends and some of them are really into clothes and always wear make up and such. They seem to like me too,

Almost anytime a person feels like they aren't dressed appropriately for a situation they tend to feel a little out of place. It's just a feature of being social creatures.

In some cases it makes sense to conform, you may realise that there is some utility to the clothing people are wearing. Or that it is a more or less formal event than you had realised. A few may be ok showing up for a casual event in a fancy dress and standing out, but most people like to fit in a bit more than that.

But being rational and sensible, we can also decide that in some cases it's ok not to conform, it's just personal preference. In my experience the best way to get over anxiety in those kinds of situations is to just do it, and to know that the other people are actually judging you, because probably they are not. They very likely do not care that you have a different preference in dress. Their choice of clothing is not made to make you feel intimidated.

As for spending more time with the men, that might be a nice opportunity to talk to some different people than you usually do. If they seem to be nice, that seems like a good thing to me.

You might like Zumba better.
I think you dance for exercise rather than enjoyment of dancing. I think you have to realise that people dance for different reasons.

I tribal belly danced for twenty years and everything was a joy. The learning new skills and isolations. The keeping alive an art form with a long history. The dressing up, looking sexy, doing performances with other beautifully costumed women knowing our choreography was gorgeous,artistic, a feast for the senses.
To me exercise was a fringe benefit, not the reason for dancing.

Swing and Lindy are usually associated with people who are into a 'vintage' vibe. They like dressing up, doing their hair and make-up and generally presenting in a different way. It's all part of the 'vibe' for them. They aren't attending the class for exercise.

It sounds to me like you've stumbled on a class where the women are into the vibe and the men are into the dancing, which is pretty unusual - ime, the men are usually as much into the dress-up and hair aspect as the women.

You don't have to like it (I found that particular tribe the most boring ever to hang out with, but I am just not interested in clothes and make-up) but actually, if I've got it right, it's not about performing femininity. It's about performing the 40s and 50s - a completely different thing.

You know, it really doesn't particularly take more time and energy, if it's just looking feminine

For me looking feminine takes time, effort and specialist equipment. I guess we’re all put together differently!

It certainly costs me money. I once lost my make up bag and realised that it would cost me £400 to replace the contents. At that time I had disposable income and it’s how I chose to spend it, but for me, femininity ain’t free

OP I went to one of these classes once

There were a few things I didn’t like, but being the only woman who didnt want to be dolled up was one reason I didn’t go back.

For me looking feminine takes time, effort and specialist equipment. I guess we’re all put together differently!

Goodness, I don't think I've owned $400 worth of make-up in my whole life! Lots of feminine women don't wear much or any make-up! I don't find casual skirts or dresses cost more than a pair of jeans these days. And my (non-fussy) husband spends more time on his hair than I do because he cuts it in the basement every few weeks. I get a trim about twice a year and wear it in a braid 90% of the time.

The fussiest person I know in terms of clothing is a male friend of mine. They have recently been clearing out their house and he has 150 pairs of shoes in boxes in a closet, some of them never worn. Not cheap trainers either, $200+ pairs.

Hmm, should have said 400 pounds obviously, I don't know how to do a pound symbol on my keyboard.

I'm honestly not sure about a feminine look being cheaper in terms of time.

Dresses and skirts may be cheap, but they're not terribly socially acceptable when teamed with socks. Tights ladder - quite apart from the increased likelihood of getting thrush. They have to be replaced. Cheap tights ladder quickly, the expensive tights not so quickly. (How much do women who wear skirts and dresses spend on tights per year?)

Women who don't shave their legs tend to be judged harshly, so there is the additional time involved in depilation.

Even sitting down, takes more time because of making sure that you're not exposed. (Upskirting is another way in which women have to stay vigilant.)

If you opt for 'feminine' long hair, it usually needs more frequent washing to have any kind of bounce,. It also takes longer to dry - and braiding it/putting it up may take a while too.

I think it's just that if this is part of your daily/weekly/monthly routine - you don't really think about the time and money involved. You only notice the effort if the routine is changed in some way.

(How much do women who wear skirts and dresses spend on tights per year?)

Probably less than you think; for me it’s about £20. I buy two multipacks of decent quality opaque tights per year - the type that wash well, retain their stretch and don’t ladder easily - at c.£10 per pack. Does away with the need to shave my legs too

I'm honestly not sure about a feminine look being cheaper in terms of time

Well believe what you want. It comes across loud and clear you don't like or approve of what these women are wearing and you are trying to justify your dislike beyond simple reasons of "it's not for me".

Some of the reasons you list above are really quite silly. Cheap supermarket tights are very robust and anything above 40 denier lasts for ever.

I'm always amazed that a skirt plus cotton on tights brings on thrush but jeans ( one of the world's least breathable garments) or trousers made of man made material are apparently ok. My own experience is the reverse.

And as for your earlier comment about I suppose that I'd think within feminism we could discuss a bit about the how and why of why some other women - however pleasant and friendly - can nonetheless make us feel inwardly not quite comfortable

Do you want to consider that you and your attitude could have that effect ?

Even sitting down, takes more time because of making sure that you're not exposed

That has to be one of the silliest posts I've seen in a long time.