Not Fitting in with 'Feminine' Women?

[albertatrilogy]

I go to a dance class where, by and large, men lead and women follow. There are fewer male leads than female follows.

In my working life women tend to be quite comfortably and casually dressed, because of the nature of the job. So not a lot of fashionable gear, definitely no heels etc. And I feel comfortable with them.

At dance class I am struggling withe feelings of being a bit of misfit. I absolutely love the dance itself and am a reasonable dancer. But I struggle with the kind of performance of femininity that a lot of the women I attend the class with seem to enjoy. (I feel more like one of the blokes, despite being female and normally dancing the 'follow' part.)

I even find myself wishing the women wouldn't dress smartly for what is mainly an exercise class - because it makes me feel like I'm not one of them. And/or it makes me wish that I was the sort of person who liked putting on lippy on a Sunday night.

It's weird because in most environments I feel much more comfortable with women than men. But not in this class. (Perhaps it's because a lot of the men are around my age. And though they are mostly dancing 'lead', they're not terribly bossy - with the odd exception.) They are being learners, making mistakes, apologising if they get a move wrong etc.

Does anyone else struggle in similar situations? I sometimes feel like the awkward 13 year old at the school disco, while the other girls are laughing in a pack.

Yes but many women don't do dance primarily as a fitness thing, although it is excellent exercise. That's your priority, not necessarily that of other women in the class

Dancing is fun- especially Scottish country dancing. The exercise is a secondary benefit.

Exercise is exercise (and in my opinion extremely boring)

I suppose that I'd think within feminism we could discuss a bit about the how and why of why some other women - however pleasant and friendly - can nonetheless make us feel inwardly not quite comfortable

This isn't a feminist take.

It's not the other women doing this to you, it's the pressure of performative femininity that's doing this to you.

Women will choose to engage with performative femininity for all sorts of reasons. One of the reasons I engage with aspects of it is that sometimes I just cannot deal with the social disapproval that is an outcome of not. While at a class level, this is less than helpful to women, it's a self preservation tactic in a patriarchy.

Patriarchy is 'doing it to you', the requirement that woman = feminine.
You don't punch down in your critique - oh, that woman is wearing lippy and shaving her legs, she's making it harder for me to be comfortable (even though this may be true), you punch up - what social forces are leading the women to dress up and the men to dress down (again, not like any dance group I've been in, but the general point is taken).

(Or, for an alternative and very prosaic reading, the culture of Lindy dancing is doing it to you - I've got friends in this scene and sure they go for the dancing, but it's also a dress up thing)

Usual caveats apply: as a woman who performs femininity at times, I do not judge other women who also perform femininity at times.I appreciate that some women do not find performing femininity as difficult as I do and may, in fact, enjoy it.

@janeskettle as a woman who would be regarded as feminine I can assure you it isn’t a performance for the patriarchy. For example, I enjoy the curves of my body. They’re beautiful. I enjoy wearing clothes that show them. To me it’s a celebration of my womanly figure. I’m happy without makeup , but love putting it on because it does makes me more attractive and I enjoy being attractive. This desire is natural, as in it’s seen in nature, it’s definitely not solely patriarchy driven.

This idea that being “feminine” is somehow a performance is at odds with my feminism. It’s as if there is an “authentic” and “non authentic” way for a woman to dress. Personally I don’t care what anyone wears.

*It's not the other women doing this to you, it's the pressure of performative femininity that's doing this to you•

No it isn’t. It is the OP’s curious mix of insecurity and superiority about the other women “performing femininity” which is doing this. Or in other words the other women failing to be the right sort of women who are worth the OP bothering about.

It’s just another version of the Gone Girl “not like the other girls” trope.

I'd argue that women can internalise and enforce patriarchal values, so it's possible for us to make other women feel uncomfortable through covert/overt disapproval.

The power dynamics play out rather in the same way that Nazis got Kapos to operate in the camps.

Fortunately the situation in social dancing is rather less drastic!

I should add the women in the classes I attend are perfectly pleasant and friendly. But as a very large number of women attend, some of them have known each other for years, it's not exactly the same bunch each time and inevitably one spends quite a lot of time dancing with blokes - so getting more at ease with them takes time.

I think the poster some way above who was talking about social mores/groupings and the inevitable way we all tend to feel 'not quite comfortable' if we don't conform - and the way we have the choice of either modifying our own behaviour or sticking with our own individual non-conformity - had it right.

Ok, so women who dress up for Lindy dancing are Kapo equivalent.

Enjoying the female body you have isn't 'femininity'.

Yeah, I'm out of this conversation.

I think one of the issues is that when I dance follow which is more often, that my partners are mostly male. So I end up getting to know the men better than the women.

This does tend to happen if you attend as a single woman and dance follow. I think a lot of people do stick to man as lead/woman follows as it works in due to size differences.

I bet the other people at the class accept you for your own style, even if they like to dress fancy themselves. I found work trousers and plimsolls very comfy for swing dancing.

The power dynamics play out rather in the same way that Nazis got Kapos to operate in the camps.

??! This is officially the worst attempt at class analysis of the year so far.

I teach a partner dance (both roles) and we’ve spent the last few years encouraging people to choose the role that suits them as an individual, rather than getting stuck on tradition. Both roles are equally important, but different.

(and after 4-5 years, most people can do the opposite to their regular fairly adequately too).

Perhaps you need a different dance type or just a different group? I find teachers/organisers set the tone so one event can be very different to another.

Thanks DuMondeB. I do from time to time try different teachers in my area, all of whom have their plus point. I suspect in London there might be a rather bigger choice. But Lindy/swing does have great music which is a real plus!

Sharon Davis is my favourite U.K. based Lindy Hop teacher.

Sharon is an incredibly feminine follow but has lovingly recreated some of the iconic male jazz and tap routines from the swing era (it was Sharon who taught me the Fred Astaire 8 count tap break 😍). Sharon literally ‘performs masculinity’ 😂

Al and Leon:
Sharon’s recreation:

I admire Sharon greatly for a number of reasons, some of them feminist - for example, as male dancers, especially top-level male dancers are more rare, female partners are often treated as expendable - but Sharon is her own brand, a fantastic performer, teacher and choreographer who doesn’t stand in anyone’s shadow.

Yes, I think there is lots of dance choice in London these days, I took my earliest classes there circa 2003 but migrated up north before the big explosion happened.

OP, have you tried another class? I went to a Lindyhop class and one of the things I most loved about it was the extraordinary mix of humanity there. Oldest dancer - a dressy man in his eighties. Youngest, a pretty teenage girl in fifties dress and lippy. Most interesting dancer was a middle aged woman in tracky bottoms and baggy tee shirt who was travelling alone around the world and just went to a Lindyhop class in every city she visited, if she could find one.

The power dynamics play out rather in the same way that Nazis got Kapos to operate in the camps

Well OP you have just regained the award of "silliest post I've seen in a long time".

There are all sorts of activities that have the benefit of making you fitter, but that doesn’t make them a fitness activity.

My job makes me fitter, but that isn’t the purpose of the job, and turning up to work and complaining that people were doing all sorts of work related elements that didn’t make you fitter would be absurd.

The same with dance. It’s aesthetic. It’s an art form. How you look is part of it. If you object to or are uncomfortable with the aesthetic element to dance, you’re doing the wrong activity.

It’s like joining a sports team and objecting to competition because you’re only there for fitness purposes. Or going to an art gallery and complains that the art was in the way of you getting your 1000 steps in.

I think it's fine to not want to participate in the dressing up yourself since this is just a class, but completely unreasonable to behave as if other women are harming you by doing so. And that's before we get to the bit about Nazis and camps.

@albertatrilogy how about you stop blaming your own inferiority complex / insecurities on other women?

Your nazi/kapo analogy is clumsy at best, deeply offensive at worst.

it's possible for us to make other women feel uncomfortable through covert/overt disapproval. but they are not disapproving of you though are they? They probably haven't given how you dress a second thought. You however obviously covertly and overtly disapprove of the other women. You sound both insecure AND judgmental, and that's from a woman who lives in jeans and wore a trouser suit to my daughter's wedding.

Yes, absolutely fine to not want to dress in a particular way. It isn’t essential in a class, but it is a part of dancing that is widely found at all levels of dance.

OP, some women have very curvy bodies and look very feminine regardless of how we dress. Oh, and my hair is easier, a lot easier, to look after when it is long.

So looking feminine isn’t always anything deliberate. really.

I mean, I dislike that particular vintage look so it wouldn't be my cup of tea, but it wouldn't occur to me to think the other women were sneering at me unless they were, you know, actually sneering at me. Which the OP hasn't said they are so far. Just "they're dressing this way and I don't want to" by itself doesn't indicate anything at all about what the other women are thinking or doing, for all we know they may not care at all if the OP turns up in trackie bottoms.

I do think you are getting a hard time tho! Liked the punching up v down explanation. Made a lot of sense to me. Useful.

The fact that the men in the class are making zero effort with grooming is odd though, in my experience dance men as a group are rather fond of dressing up.

@fascinated but even if it is deliberate , what is the issue?

I think there is quite a lot of feminism (some of it feminine, some not) in Contemporary swing dance, if you know where to look for it!

Swing Sister Swing (Cat Foley and Nancy Hitzig)

More from Nancy: www.communitydance.org.uk/DB/blogs-and-voices/news_and_views/swing-sisters-question-politics-of-partner-dance

www.leadingladiesswingfestival.dk/ - Festival with almost entirely female teachers

Decavita Sisters in Liverpool last year (Ramona and Pamela)

And just because 🙊

Sharon outdancing Tony:

Tatiana being amazing (with short hair and trousers 😉)

Frida because, FRIDA! (Frida busts the myth of ‘just’ following everytime she dances

If you haven’t done it already (and indeed, if she’s still doing it!) I would very much recommend Trisha Sewell’s Sugabomb workshops for follows only, because not only do you learn loads, you get to know other women dancers in a way you don’t when your classes and socials are mostly based around dancing with male leaders:

www.trishasewell.com/suga-bomb---followers-bootcamp.html

The fact that the men in the class are making zero effort with grooming is odd though, in my experience dance men as a group are rather fond of dressing up.

Lindy Hop tends to attract very clever, socially awkward people - it’s structured enough that you don’t get stuck with a stranger for long and it’s essentially all physics.

I suspect the less groomed male dancers are all on the spectrum!