Not Fitting in with 'Feminine' Women?

[albertatrilogy]

I go to a dance class where, by and large, men lead and women follow. There are fewer male leads than female follows.

In my working life women tend to be quite comfortably and casually dressed, because of the nature of the job. So not a lot of fashionable gear, definitely no heels etc. And I feel comfortable with them.

At dance class I am struggling withe feelings of being a bit of misfit. I absolutely love the dance itself and am a reasonable dancer. But I struggle with the kind of performance of femininity that a lot of the women I attend the class with seem to enjoy. (I feel more like one of the blokes, despite being female and normally dancing the 'follow' part.)

I even find myself wishing the women wouldn't dress smartly for what is mainly an exercise class - because it makes me feel like I'm not one of them. And/or it makes me wish that I was the sort of person who liked putting on lippy on a Sunday night.

It's weird because in most environments I feel much more comfortable with women than men. But not in this class. (Perhaps it's because a lot of the men are around my age. And though they are mostly dancing 'lead', they're not terribly bossy - with the odd exception.) They are being learners, making mistakes, apologising if they get a move wrong etc.

Does anyone else struggle in similar situations? I sometimes feel like the awkward 13 year old at the school disco, while the other girls are laughing in a pack.

I have had long hair down to my bum, and short hair to my ears. I’ve always washed it the same amount to be honest, once or twice a week. I don’t straighten it or curl it. Just because your hair is long doesn’t mean you have to do anything special to it

I don't know that I even have pantyhose. In winter I usually wear lined leggings or tights because they are warm, sometimes also with knee socks. In summer it's true I have to shave my legs if I'm unwilling to be hairy. I certainly wash my hair less often than my dh, he does it every day (not that it's a lot of work) and I do it three times a week, unless I'm busy in which case it will be twice. Hair type obviously makes a difference there.
I have had short hair in the past, sometimes very short, and I grew it because the work and expense of haircuts was too much for me.

I also have a problem with the way people talk about performing femininity, in part because it's often as if they have defined one, very high maintanence version of what that is, something like a Gabour or Kardashian, and that's it. If you look around there are all kinds of feminine women who are comfortable with feeling feminine but don't spend a ton of time or money on it.

I had a school librarian when I was in high school who I thought was really cool and elegant looking. She had long white hair that she wore in a braid, little or no make-up, she would wear these dresses that were kind of hippy but not quite. She was also a hard-ass disciplinarian, unmarried, and knew lot about literature. But she was undoubtably feminine.

There are all kinds of cultural expressions of femininity.

Have they rejected you OP or is your self consciousness causing you to reject them? Why can't you be mates with people who dress differently to you? Is this your prejudice or theirs?

Yeah, making sure you aren't exposed to sit? Wear a longer skirt, I guess? At least you don't have to check to make sure your fly is down.

Or for that matter, wear pants, if you prefer, you can still be feminine wearing them as well, if that's what you want.

When we don't know people personally, we fill in the blanks. Might I suggest getting to know them? At the worst, your suspicions will be confirmed and you'll be in the same place you are now but you might well find that they don't care about how you're dressed (in a good way) which would certainly ease my anxieties.

I suppose that I'd think within feminism we could discuss a bit about the how and why of why some other women - however pleasant and friendly - can nonetheless make us feel inwardly not quite comfortable
Yes indeed, it would be nice to see a discussion about why some feminists are so unwelcoming towards women who don't fit their image of what a feminist should look like (my experience since 1975 - has it made me defensive? Hell yes). Or why so many other stereotypically feminine interests - especially the caring and nurturing kind - seem to get a free pass on these boards when it comes to analysis. I don't expect it to happen though.

And yeah I did say I would bow out but I see the discussion continued anyway.

I buy two multipacks of decent quality opaque tights per year - the type that wash well, retain their stretch and don’t ladder easily - at c.£10 per pack

Indeed. 30 denier aren't opaque but in black, grey, navy , or almost black are still thick enough to hide hair , don't ladder but look dressy.

I can't remember when I last bought tights and I wear them every day. It's possible that the last time was part of a job lot along with comfy cotton knickers from Asda or Sainsbury's which would have been January 2019 or at the latest June 2019. My husband buys socks more often.

I have to say I find pantyhose fragile, which is why I don't wear them typically.
But my jeans all come through at the knees too which gets expensive.

I think one of the reasons why women have embraced trousers is that you can move a great deal more freely.

It's possible to climb without worrying about fabric being tight for example. Cycling is also quite difficult in a skirt or dress. Long fabric would get in the spokes. Close fitted skirts make it harder to get on and off. Running for a bus in a pencil skirt is not to be recommended.

So in a skirt a lot of things will have to be done differently - more slowly, more carefully or not at all. Obviously those who like wearing skirts all the time get used to the constraints.

(And if you're not very athletic this probably doesn't matter - but it may be worth thinking about how girls are shamed if their underwear is ever glimpsed.)

This doesn't mean that the freedom to wear skirts may also be worth having - they are cooler in hot weather perhaps

OP I know exactly how you feel. I also go to a dance class where I love the dancing but just don't have the energy/organisational ability/time/money to dress myself in clothes that are anything other than casual.

It does make me feel under-dressed a little bit, and I also know what you mean about not bonding with the other women because you're' always dancing with men. Fortunately the class always starts late so the women get a chance to chat.

And I don't think you're being judgey. All females are feminine by virtue of being female IMO but what society associates with femininity does take effort and a certain amount of socialisation. There's nothing wrong with that. We all make our peace with it in different ways.

Keep going, just get there a bit early to chat to the women, and if you don't like dressing up, then don't. Be yourself.

Skirts are great if you want to wear warm boots. I'm forever faffing trying to work out which trousers fit with which boots without bunching up etc. No issue with skirts.

OP you didn't answer my earlier question though, about how other's clothes affect your level of comfort? It's an interesting discussion potentially, there are all sorts of subcultures who express themselves to varying extents through their clothes.

I wear skater skirts mostly, or fit and flare style. Super comfortable, and I usually wear 40 denier tights upwards. Any exercise I do in leggings. I like jeans but hate ‘smart’ trousers. I don’t think skirts prohibit me in any way, they are certainly more comfortable than trousers, and as I wear high waisted usually, I don’t feel the need to unbuttton and tuck after a big meal like I do when I wear trousers

Upskirting is not inherently a problem of a skirt, it’s a problem of pervy men. Using that is another way of shaming women because of the behaviour of men imo

Well, I prefer to houseclean in sweatpants. And usually go to the woods in tough pants. If I did sports I daresay sports shorts might be preferable but they are a little exposed for me. I can bike with no problem in a skirt but it's city biking not performance stuff.

I garden and do most other things, by preference, in a skirt. I find them far more comfortable and roomy and adjust to changes in size, they don't pull at your waist or crotch, and yes cool in the summer. (I have a shift I wear in really hot weather at home, it requires no bra or underpants so it feels pretty much like being naked, without the downside of scarring my kids emotionally.)

It's to some extent about having the right length and fabric. But mainly it's just personal preference, for everyone who says they prefer trousers, there is probably someone else who prefers a skirt.

I'm forever faffing trying to work out which trousers fit with which boots without bunching up etc.

When I had to wear boots for a while because of an injury, I found Debenham's did a nice range of bootcut jeans which fit over full hiking boots.

sorry you feel this way but you recognise this is less about feminism and more about your self confidence. I’m intrigued by your use of the phrase “performance of femininity”. Why does that offend you? What has it got to do with you? Why do you feel it undermines you?

I’m what you’d call feminine and I attract male attention. I enjoy it; to me as a heterosexual it is completely natural that men desire me. It also has nothing to do with my feminism. Despite the fact they desire me I don’t expect to be treated as lesser! It’s men’s job to ensure equality, not mine to dress in a certain way to secure it.

I’d perhaps have a look at your own feminism and how you view “feminine” women.

Would it not be very much welcomed OP and tick a few other boxes for you, if you offered to dance lead in your class?

From my experience I feel like a lot of the blokes who go to ‘historical’ dance classes do so partly because they quite like the historical gender roles of whatever era it was. That has put me right off it.

I used to love partner dancing classes but hated being patronised, flirted with, all at very close physical quarters with random dance blokes. I accept that everyone’s there for a different reason-some like the dance as an art form, some just as a fun leisure thing, some come to try to cop off, others to make new friends, some like the music or getting dressed up for the era. Personally though I would have felt much more comfortable dancing with a female lead, even if she was patronising or flirted with me

My parents went on cruises , because at night you dresses up to eat and dance afterwards.
Life seems to have become so grungy, can you not see that these woman may be using these classes as a chance to showcase a look they love, that part of their joy in the type of dance includes the shopping and getting ready.
To know that in this dance class they should not be judge for having fun.

Cycling is also quite difficult in a skirt or dress

Gosh! I cycled to school in a school uniform skirt. Again this comment is your prejudice, not a fact. I'm always struck by how elegant the female cyclists in cities such as Amsterdam or Copenhagen are and who seem to have no difficulty.

If you are not very athletic this probably doesn't matter - but it may be worth thinking about how girls are shamed if their underwear is ever glimpsed.)

Presumably if one is very athletic one would wear clothes designed for that? Tight jeans and trousers would be equally restrictive.

And as for girls being shamed- this thread is about adult women making choices of what to wear at a social event- albeit you seem to think adult women might be incapable of sitting down without showing their knickers.

OP you didn't answer my earlier question though, about how other's clothes affect your level of comfort?

No she hasn't. She hasn't answered my question as to whether her attitude might make other women feel inwardly not quite comfortable

I'm enjoying the comments from people who have attended dance classes about the pros and cons/roles within partner dancing - and the attraction certain dance styles have for people who like dressing up.

I think what I like about lindy is that it is a very athletic dance form - the street dance of its era.

There is perhaps an extent to which it has been 'taken over' and taken away from its orginal roots. But it's not - or wasn't about glamour or some ultra-stylised version of femininity - in the way that some of the dances you see on Strictly are...

I do dance lead sometimes but am not currently at a level where I can dance lead well socially. (I've had a lot more classes as follow, but this is maybe something that I'll seek to change in 2020!)

I'm forever faffing trying to work out which trousers fit with which boots without bunching up etc

That is so true whereas the vast majority of skirts and dresses can be worn with any heel height or style- changing from high heels to ballet flats to clumpy boots changes the image effectively.

Dance is not primarily about fitness.

This. I understand where you're coming from OP but fitness wouldn't be my main reason to join that sort of dance class, more a side benefit. And I would dress up as it helps you to get into it.

I think dance certainly can be about fitness. At the last class I went to - a beginners one that I was supporting as the teachers had wanted some more experience dancers to come along and help - a great many of the women were significantly out of breath after around 20 minutes.

It's also about flexibility. You'll use muscles that you won't use in everyday standing, sitting, walking.

I do one or two other forms of exercise, but dance is definitely an important part of the way I seek to keep fit.

Yes but many women don't do dance primarily as a fitness thing, although it is excellent exercise. That's your priority, not necessarily that of other women in the class.

OP, you need to realise just as your not liking the dressing up, as is your right, for others the dressing up adds to their hobby.
Life real is about live and let live.
And not about being a judgie pants

I wear skater skirts mostly, or fit and flare style. Super comfortable, and I usually wear 40 denier tights upwards. Any exercise I do in leggings. I like jeans but hate ‘smart’ trousers. I don’t think skirts prohibit me in any way, they are certainly more comfortable than trousers

Same here, and I also have long hair that I wash every other day in the shower and let dry naturally. I colour it a few times a year and do the root touch up. I put it up with a clip sometimes for work if it's looking a bit tired, and I straighten or curl it (which doesn't take that long as it's quite fine) when I'm going out somewhere nice. None of that takes me that long.