Female staff shun MOD's pongy new mixed sex loos

[WomanBornNotWorn]

MOD have spent thousands of public money on new mixed loos no women want - doesn't give the men's opinion.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/female-staff-shun-mods-new-21177430.amp?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR1HEHi40z6tqD8-F87KFZJ1j7BKAGUxpvqhCckqarRjUc_lgG5z5fRhpk8

Women's loos are horrific. I think men generally are much cleaner in their use of public toilets

Sounds like you would know, Spruce

SpruceTree

Theres nothing stopping you from using the mens toilets if they are so much cleaner. 🤷‍♀️

In fact, if the mens are sooooooo much better, why is there such a clamour for men to be able to use the womens 🤔

I've posted this before but it seems relevant to questions about why some lavatory facilities feel especially messy.
--
Reminded me of Jeffreys' discussion of public lavatories and Sheila Cavanagh's work on dung smearing as a way of establishing territorial dominance over a space and making it unsuitable/undesirable to women.

[Cavanagh] says that men like to spread faeces about in the toilets to mark their territory in a way that women do not, ‘There is a none too subtle correlation between heteronormative masculinities and the territorialisation of public facilities through the spread of dung’ (Cavanagh, 2010: 163). Men, it seems, like to spread their ‘dung’ on the walls and doors of public lavatories.... From: The politics of the toilet: A feminist response to the campaign to ‘degender’ a women's space

www.sheilajeffreys.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/toilet-article.pdfpublished-version.pdf

senseless I think you make a very good point.

No means no. It’s not our job of work or responsibility to rewrite their pitch for them in a way that ensures a yes.

Excellent point, Senseless. IME one of the hardest questions after "Define 'woman'" for unthinking allies to answer is "Why is this my problem?".

TW aren't safe in men's loos.
Why?
Because male violence.
Why is this women's problem to solve?
Because we should be nice.
Why?
Erm...

Jelly yes! I find that ‘why?’ can be very useful indeed in situations where I’m being presented with very weak assumptions or arguments.

Totally agree SenselessUbiquity

We have a simple approach where I work. Our staff is 10% female and 90% male.

The only people who know how to order anything or invoice anything are female.
Since the directors want to survive the month, they don’t challenge us on such a fundamental issue. We have a key code lock on the ladies loo which we set.

Carefully and sparingly used, collective action is very effective.

We had an issue on exercise where men were ejaculating onto the door handles of the portaloos. It was the most disturbing mass sexual harassment I have ever been subjected to in my Army career.

The Home Office had similar problems in 2018

www.heart.co.uk/news/uk-world/home-office-gender-neutral-toilets-sign/

A £36,000 renovation to the lavatories at the Home Office hasn't gone down well with female workers who have been left feeling distressed since new gender neutral toilets have been introduced.

A notice has been placed outside the unisex toilets at the department’s Westminster headquarters asking men to ensure they only use the loos with the door closed, because it's been unsightly for female colleagues, who have been avoiding them as a result.

One reason why the executives pursue these policies may be inclusion on a list like this if you can garner enough woke points. Looks good on the CV when boarding the NGO/corporate gravy train.

outstanding.involvepeople.org/

Hard to tell if this is a result of the fraudulent EA2010 text that was circulated to businesses, councils, and agencies, replacing sex with gender identity in the list of protected characteristics, or if it is simply misogynists abusing their power and the law in an effort to drive women out of the public sphere.

Women make smells in the toilet too. This is a ridiculous argument.

Male piss stinks far more than female piss.

We have gender neutral loos where I work. Genuinely I only go if I absolutely have to. Sick of wiping up colleagues piss. Talk about wife work in the workplace.

About the fish smell, that comes from proteins that haven't been cleaned up soon enough. It's not men's urine that has proteins in it.

Protein levels in urine: "For a 24-hour urine collection, the normal value is less than 80 mg per 24 hours."

That's my point, Creepster. It's not the urine.

Can’t be bothered to go back and check who made the snarky comment but of course I don’t have the answers, that is why I was asking. Trans people aren’t only transwomen though.
So saying well it’s ok to take away Male facilities and make them gender neutral because it is only males who are trying to access women only spaces is just wrong as it works both ways. I am as angry as the next person, I want single sex spaces. I just can’t see the value in continuing to be furious without really thinking about the solutions too. If women and men say no to Trans people then where are they supposed to go safely?

What is wrong with single sex loos? Why has there been a move towards mixed sex loos? We were discussing this when we were out with a mixed group of friends (10 of us) and none of us- men or women- wanted mixed sex loos. Why do loo providers think we do?

we need clean, safe, single sex loos, for women. Whatever other provision exists for others - I don't care, except I generally hope it works for them and everyone can be happy. Still - not my problem.

This. Very well put.

Removing needed single sex facilities from females excludes and fails female people. The reasons and needs for female people in having single sex spaces haven't gone away. Taking them away to try and meet the needs of another demographic is a ridiculous answer.

Third spaces: easy enough to do and provides a solution for those who prefer not to use facilities intended for their biological sex, plus those perfectly happy to use mixed sex spaces.

This really isn't at all about safety. This is about offering some male people choice and freedom while removing from some female people access to any space at all .

The elephant cantering around the room is that third spaces involves saying the word 'no'.

There's a quote I've been searching for for a long time, something about behind the coward who claims to be acting from nobility and niceness, creeps the axeman with his shining, bloodied axe. Who does his dirty work for him, because that cowardice still does harm, it just a way to avoid facing up to or taking responsibility for it. Also voiced by Harry Miller's Judge 'If the government intend to remove fundamental human rights they must face up to the realities of what they are doing'.

Senseless: "Our issue is that we need clean, safe, single sex loos, for women. Whatever other provision exists for others - I don't care, except I generally hope it works for them and everyone can be happy. Still - not my problem."

Absolutely 100% this.

LuluJakey1 's comment needs repeating time and again.
Women and men are not demanding mixed sex facilities. There's a certain type of person asking for this and they are precisely the people who should not be allowed anywhere near others when they are undressing / vulnerable.
Women are repeatedly on the back foot over this, yet we shouldn't be. We need to keep questioning the motivation of the powerful men (and it's mainly men) who are implementing this. Make them explain why they are so desperate to invade women's spaces.

If women and men say no to Trans people then where are they supposed to go safely?

Why is it women's problem to solve?

Who are responsible for over 90% of violent offences and 98% of sexual offences? Men.

Sex-segregated toilets are safer for women because men are kept out.

If anyone is unsafe in the men's toilets, why isn't it men's job to solve the problem?

If women and men say no to Trans people then where are they supposed to go safely?

Men are not saying no to male trans people in male facilities. Women are not saying no to female trans people in female facilities. The 'no' is to transgressing the norm, established for good reason, that male people don't enter female single sex spaces.

As I said earlier: to do so is about offering people born male a wider personal choice of spaces at the cost of depriving all female people of privacy and dignity of any spaces apart from males, and excluding some some female people from having access to any spaces at all. To give male people more choice of which spaces they prefer. Weigh that up.

If you can see why this is just or right please tell me. Really. I'm dying to know why this isn't a howling, appalling injustice.