Slogans!

[xxyzz]

This thread is about slogans, and the need for them.

I've commented previously that one of the great strengths the TRAs currently possess is that they have had several years to frame the debate on their own terms, before most feminists were even aware that there was an issue, and in particular, to devise and propagate widely used and certain easy-to-remember slogans.

As others have pointed out, TWAW is extremely effective at ending discusssion. It pithily expresses an easy-to-understand point, but requires dense and not-easy-to-follow text to argue against.

Given that most social media interactions are brief, people are busy, and not necessarily particularly bright, and given that TWAW has been out there as a 'truth' for years, GC feminists are facing an uphill struggle to explain in similarly pithy, simple language why it is wrong.

Which brings me to SLOGANS.

GC feminists need to be redefining the debate with our own, equally, or more effective slogans. These need to explain our key points using simple words that everyone understands, and they need to be repeated relentlessly- as TWAW has been. The success of 'Get Brexit done' as a slogan - and the Tories religiously on-message use of it throughout the election campaign- was a big part of their recent success. Just as 'Take Back Control'was a hugely effective slogan before the referendum in 2016.

The importance of slogans should not be under-estimated.

FWIW, I don't think 'Women are Adult Human Females' is a successful slogan at all. Because:

a) It sounds utterly batshit to anyone not already following the debate - of course women are adult human females!
b) It allows TRAs to continue to frame the debate in terms of a discussion over who is a woman. When actually, this is something that has been known for thousands of years and even a toddler could tell you. We should not be arguing primarily on their territory. It does us no favours.
c) Most importantly, it ignores women's main issues with TRA claims. We are not arguing over terminology, we are arguing over women's and children's SAFETY and RIGHTS.The terminology matters only insofar as it is being used to undermine that safety and those rights. But by putting the cart before the horse, we have lost most of our audience, who don't follow us long enough past the batshitttery to find out WHY we care about the terminology.

So I think we need slogans that go back to basics.

We need slogans that fight on our own territory and frame the debate through our own eyes, not through the eyes of those intent on dismantling women's rights.

I would suggest that what we need are slogans that simply and clearly point out and go on the offensive over misogyny and attacks on women's rights - as feminists have always done.

Please suggest your effective slogans below. Sure that we can crowdsourced some better slogans than we have currently.

Over to you...

BTW - Women’s clothing- I don’t mean kink /knicker fetishes etc... I agree that’s completely gross

I agree it’s a sexual fetish fraggling, I’m saying that like any sexual fetish it can be kept private between adults. Men getting kicks out of women’s underwear does not have to be mutually exclusive with respecting women’s boundaries.

And yes it’s completely based on regressive notions about women, but sexual preferences (not orientations- I’m using preferences accurately) tend to begin forming young, often before we have any real idea of what sex is, and tend to be hugely complicated to unpick or recondition, even in those who seek out therapy to do so. But men or women being into kinks does not mean it has to be predatory, and most aren’t. We don’t hear about those type with apg though outside larger than life characters like greyson Perry (who is quite clear he’s a man and a tranny not a woman, and doesn’t go around discussing his undies to push it on others even when he dons a dress).

I did read it xxyzz - I was saying it as a slogan, women’s rights are not unkind as counter to the be kind tra’s utilise.

Xxyzz yes I saw that too. For men wearing feminine clothes to gain acceptance, we (collective cultural we) would need to stop the presumption that those who do it are perverts, wankers, etc.

MVisa seems to think it’s ok to call me a rape apologist mra as a result! So I don’t hold out much hope of it happening any time soon.

These guys were posting their reviews on m&s though. Which is what we're taking about.

With the amount of pervy weirdy men I've encountered in my life, I also reserve the right to feel that there's a lot of them about, and that the wearing of women's undies is rarely going to be done by men for non sexual purposes. And so many men with fetishes do seem to like to share them.

Obviously what I don't know won't hurt so if men want to do this quietly then crack on. However, we're increasingly being told not to 'kink shame' and pervy men are being encouraged to share all about their predilections and get not only to chat about them/ share images but get a round of applause for doing so.

The rubber wanker at nspcc being a case in point.

To return to the main topic, what are we actually fighting for? The slogans should reflect the core meaning. We are not aiming to mislead, as TWAW does, just to lead.

I think they key issues are (not sure about the order):

1. Women's rights to our own spaces need to be protected (from potentially predatory and/or cheating men) - both physical spaces eg prisons, rape shelters, toilets, etc and metaphorical ones eg all women shortlists, women's sport, lesbianism not to incorporate men. Biology is real.

1. Counting counts - biological women and men need to be counted as such because otherwise it is impossible to understand or describe women's oppression and male violence or patriarchy. Relates back to 1. but an extension of it.

1. Women AND men should be free to present and live however they like - there are no such things as clothing, toys, jobs, behaviour, etc which are the sole preserve of either sex. Gender stereotypes aren't real.

1. Child safeguarding needs to be protected - no child should be prescribed untested medication or given unnecessary surgery to healthy bodies to resolve a mental health issue.

1. Issues to do with language and legal definitions of woman as a sex class underpin 1-3.

What have I missed? or can someone summarise these better than I have done? It would be good to have the key ideas summed up in a short sentence or a few words each. I think we have plenty of good slogans already for number 5.

I'm trying to think up something to be used as an immediate retort to TWAW.

Am failing. Too much mulled wine.

I was thinking of something that pushes the problem back onto men. Something to make the message be like "Men stop being dicks to Dave when he's at the urinals just because he has a boob job and lipstick." Can't find pithy words.

Tell the men to be kind. People like telling other people to be kind.

VMisaMarshmallow - ah, sorry! Being slow on the uptake today... :) Yes, agreed.

Joan - "Tell the men to be kind. People like telling other people to be kind."

Lol. Am enjoying some of the responses here immensely.

Kilroy was here, very good, with a modified penis nose of course.

I am listening and taking notes xxyzz, just thinking out loud.

I know frag that’s why I argued with retro that men posting reviews about how women’s lacy silky undies fit is pushing their kink on women, which is crossing boundaries and not ok.

I’m sure there’s plenty like greyson Perry who has a thing about wearing what are fairly regressive stereotypical women’s clothing. He acknowledges it’s a sexual fetish and that he knows he’s a man and terms himself tranny -hence several twitter wars with tra’s where he’s clearly gc. Being apg and not violating women’s boundaries is not mutually exclusive, but it does seem to be a thing for some apg to get a further kick out of making women and girls uncomfortable, and this is the part of it that’s an issue. It’s totally possible to say the problem is with those crossing women’s boundaries (and discussing how women’s undies fits bollocks is doing that) as they are predators as opposed to condemning all apgs as a problem. It’s entirely on them to go haul other men to task though. But Perry certain does a fair bit of that from what I’ve seen, Lou Reed certainly did too, as does Marilyn Manson. They don’t need celebrated but saying here is blokes in skirts who still know they are blokes is good to point out the bs from the apg who are predatory.

MVisa I’m not sure why you did so much name calling and nastiness at me in the process. It makes it very hard to have any sort of Productive discussion that isn’t just nodding along with everything.

Yeah I mean we're more or less on the same page.

The underlying objectification/ sexualisation of women underpinning this fetish is a separate issue for another thread probs.

I don't understand your question to me marshmallow.

Appealing to regressive sex role stereotypes socialisation to be nice won’t silence women on this board retro.

I suppose with so many pervy weirdos about, my benefit of the doubt is worn thin.

Men always want us to give them the benefit of the doubt, don't they.

As a counter to TWAW- then why are they trans? As in if they weren’t men they wouldn’t have to transition to be tw would they?

I don't think you need to get all the ideas across. That's not what a slogan does. TWAW doesn't.

Think of people in the media/social media/student union. When someone alludes to TWAW, they need something to retort and feel morally superior in saying it.

Most people don't even know that TWAW is a thing, that GRC exist, birth certificates can be changed, transwomen have been put in women's prisons, self-id is a thing, transwomen almost always keep their penis, etc. I think slogans are no good for that education. Stories in the press with lots of pictures are the way forward for that.

There has been woeful under reporting of Karen White, McKinnon, Bunce and others who have been allowed to take the piss at an extreme level. Never mind the crazy numbers of imprisoned male sex offenders who have suddenly realised they are trans and thus need to be in women's prisons and be searched female guards.

We know journos can be lazy. If we can feed them the pictures and the sensationalist stories then they'll use them. Especially now the media seems to be waking up what with the Tavistock and Mermaids starting be more obviously Kids Company territory and Jo Swinson being a loon. There are plenty of stories out there.

Slogans are good for social media and short interviews, mainly to help the gender critical be willing to speak up/have the last word, I think. Mainstream publicity is needed to let the non-Twitterati public know what's going on, at which point 95% will go WTF!

Finding the right word is slippery.

Dont give up.

We know we are talking about the boundaries that are being violated even within the law, yet we cannot name such a thing.

Our wings are clipped, our hands and tongues are tied.

Absolutely frag. And we don’t have to. If they are apg who respect women’s boundaries then we don’t hear about them iyswim? Outside of characters like greyson who keeps the kink side private just acknowledges that’s what it is (and I like how he keeps tranny as his own term seeing as tra’s etc shut it down as an insult when it hasn’t been) we simply don’t hear about it unless it’s the predatory kind because telling us about it is a predatory act in most circumstances. If that is explained correctly frag?

Fraggling
Men always want us to give them the benefit of the doubt, don't they

And if we don't, it's darvo all the way.

"Non-binary woman"

"Non-binary man"

These as captions for pictures of very ordinary people doing very ordinary things.

E.g. hot woman wiring a plug, woman cheering at football, woman running a race, man wiping a child's face, man wearing a flamboyant shirt, man cooking dinner.

Genderitis is a social contagion.

I have others but it would be deleted.