Slogans!

[xxyzz]

This thread is about slogans, and the need for them.

I've commented previously that one of the great strengths the TRAs currently possess is that they have had several years to frame the debate on their own terms, before most feminists were even aware that there was an issue, and in particular, to devise and propagate widely used and certain easy-to-remember slogans.

As others have pointed out, TWAW is extremely effective at ending discusssion. It pithily expresses an easy-to-understand point, but requires dense and not-easy-to-follow text to argue against.

Given that most social media interactions are brief, people are busy, and not necessarily particularly bright, and given that TWAW has been out there as a 'truth' for years, GC feminists are facing an uphill struggle to explain in similarly pithy, simple language why it is wrong.

Which brings me to SLOGANS.

GC feminists need to be redefining the debate with our own, equally, or more effective slogans. These need to explain our key points using simple words that everyone understands, and they need to be repeated relentlessly- as TWAW has been. The success of 'Get Brexit done' as a slogan - and the Tories religiously on-message use of it throughout the election campaign- was a big part of their recent success. Just as 'Take Back Control'was a hugely effective slogan before the referendum in 2016.

The importance of slogans should not be under-estimated.

FWIW, I don't think 'Women are Adult Human Females' is a successful slogan at all. Because:

a) It sounds utterly batshit to anyone not already following the debate - of course women are adult human females!
b) It allows TRAs to continue to frame the debate in terms of a discussion over who is a woman. When actually, this is something that has been known for thousands of years and even a toddler could tell you. We should not be arguing primarily on their territory. It does us no favours.
c) Most importantly, it ignores women's main issues with TRA claims. We are not arguing over terminology, we are arguing over women's and children's SAFETY and RIGHTS.The terminology matters only insofar as it is being used to undermine that safety and those rights. But by putting the cart before the horse, we have lost most of our audience, who don't follow us long enough past the batshitttery to find out WHY we care about the terminology.

So I think we need slogans that go back to basics.

We need slogans that fight on our own territory and frame the debate through our own eyes, not through the eyes of those intent on dismantling women's rights.

I would suggest that what we need are slogans that simply and clearly point out and go on the offensive over misogyny and attacks on women's rights - as feminists have always done.

Please suggest your effective slogans below. Sure that we can crowdsourced some better slogans than we have currently.

Over to you...

Iturnedmyfaceaway - thank you for getting the point I'm trying to make.

As was Fraggling, with her book link. I agree with the point made there, that the GC side need messages that hook into existing values re eg fair play and caring about women/girls (I have more faith than Fraggling that enough people do still care about this). That TRAs have successfully weaponised being 'kind' - so responses to that that can be painted as 'unkind' will be used successfully against us. Hence the need for positive messages that show them as unkind/unfair.

The problem women here have with apg is it being pushed onto women- so men following women to the female toilets
I read the following on the FWR board a while back...
"Whilst women are holding the door open for TW, the AGP's and predatory men will walk straight in".

Tailgating.

I’m assuming that ‘XY? Then you’re a guy’ is too simplistic?
I like the previously stated ‘Lesbians don’t have penises’ and think ‘Woman = adult human female’ is more powerful than people think. Several family members who don’t frequent twitter etc.. are horrified by the current state of TRA abuse of women and don’t know how to fight back... They are retired so no fear of losing their jobs and want to stop the crazy

I'm no Magdalen Berns, so not as successfully, sadly.

The thing is that, even knowing that I'm not in her league as a woman and as a human being, I don't feel jealous, I don't feel like a failure, and I don't want to smash everything she stands for. I just admire the hell out of her.

VMisa, you may consider AGP fine but the majority here don’t, and would like more people to be aware of it as a counter to acceptance of being kind to trans people in general.

And it’s not bollocks to note that there’s a lot of hostility And judgement from women towards men who dress in feminine clothing.

Did you miss the threads about underwear, where men posting reviews of what fits well around balls etc were laid out as examples of perverts that needed reporting to the stores.

We can’t have it both ways. If we genuinely want men to feel fine being men and wearing feminine things, we ought to not label them perverts for doing that.

My favourite is Biology isn’t Bigotry as its so simple and covers a lot of the issues.

Also Sex Not Gender

Maybe something like

One Body
One Sex
One Million Ways to be You

So wrath? I doubt anyone cares what Grayson Perry gets up to in his own house with a wife who knew he was a self proclaimed tranny before they married, as long as he goes off to the blokes toilets dress on or not. Which I'd presume he does seeing as he has been very clear about terming himself a man and a tranny publicly and retweeted plenty gc stuff before. The issue with apg is those who jump onto the stonewall bandwagon of trans umbrella, meaning they are a woman if they feel like it, and plenty with apg have historically not behaved this way. Miranda Yardley’s voiced this before too, that if apg is acknowledged as a sexual kink then it doesn’t have to be ‘hidden’ by pretending to be women and half the trans umbrella falls down.

Men wearing women's underwear is the preserve of the perve though and always has been! I mean, come on.

Men steal women's underwear, buy used women's underwear, photo women's underwear illicitly, put it on and have s good wank.

To say that it's hypocritical for women to applaud and support the Bowie/ Marilyn types while icking at men putting on lingerie for thrills and then gleefully writing about it online, is out of order.

Women can and must be able to draw a line between GNC men and Percy weirdos...

Pervy not percy!

Loving lots of the ideas - just sniggered at Cookieflavoredbiscuit's "If there's more than one ball in the game, it's not women's sport."

Twistables' idea of using questions is interesting but unless you also supply the answers will this help people to understand? (Note my question.)

Would prefer to avoid anything attacking men who dress in 'women's' clothing per se - I think we want to say the opposite, that real men can wear skirts/dresses/make up etc as they wish, and real women can have short hair and like playing football etc. That is kind of the whole point. Gender does not = sex. Good points made re AGP on both sides - but I think I'd rather use Grayson Perry to make our point than castigate him and implicitly attack all men who like wearing a frock.

'And it’s not bollocks to note that there’s a lot of hostility And judgement from women towards men who dress in feminine clothing.'

It's men who mainly have a problem with feminine men, and are a danger to them. Everyone but everyone knows that.

Retro reviewing women’s underwear fitting round male genitals is pushing it on women, apg in consenting adults homes who aren’t co-opting women’s spaces is entirely different. Apg are perfectly capable of respecting woman’s boundaries, raising awareness of apg not doing that does don’t discount the likes of greyson Perry bothering no one. No kink should be pushed on others and anyone into any kink is perfectly capable of respecting women’s boundaries. Its bs to describe men expanding what’s ok for male dress as some that requires women to accept anyone who claims to be women or for us to stick to regressive sex role stereotypes. Take that strawman elsewhere.

Men are the dominant class, they simply don’t need women to make them feel more comfortable or less judged to be more feminine, again that’s victim blaming bs. Men can wear skirts while recognising they are still men, plenty have been for decades, they can even get their jollies off on it as long as they fuck off to the men’s rather than pushing their fetish on women, again plenty have been for decades.

Telling women they can’t have it both ways sounds a lot like mra speak.

"If there's more than one ball in the game, it's not women's sport."

like it!

"xy means youre a guy"

"biology is notbigotry"

"sex not gender"

all excellent clear concise-

what about a riff on stonewalls 'acceptance without exception' is it? 'acceptance with caveats-obvs' 'acceptance with ???

back in the day, there were two types of grafitti: rule and wot no (?) the 70s were not renowned for their linguistic diversity. still:

single-sex spaces rule
and
wot no women's toilets
might work?

Fraggling, you literally just posted that men who wear feminine undies are perves. That’s hostile and judgemental, and it’s a fairly typical viewpoint.

So how are blokes who would like to wear silky lacy things supposed to go about it without being labelled a perve? And I don’t mean popstars and actors - those groups have always been given a lot more leeway than average Joe.

How does average Joe buy and wear feminine clothes, and (oh horror) review the fit so other blokes can choose well for fit, without being labelled a perve?

The observation "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" can save us.
Look at this. (LedByDonkeys, eat your hearts out. This is our material not even specially curated.

Fraggle- men wearing women’s underwear privately is nothing though- I seem to remember David Beckham admitting he’d tried wearing Victoria’s round about the same time he wore skirts & headbands out. If it’s (details anyways) kept to themselves who cares, describing how women’s undies fit male genitals is not keeping it to themselves though is it? Some people get a kick out of liking food of one another, I doubt any of us care if there’s winks when someone buys whipped cream but Sainsbury’s posted reviews of how tasty whipped cream was for licking of a mans cock then that’d be way crossing the line. Kinks (involving consenting adults) are no issue as long as they aren’t pushed on anyone. As long as anyone apg knows they are a man, goes off to men’s loos, doesn’t go asking fetishised questions about periods etc then that’s their business. It’s the current trend for drawing in unsuspecting women and girls all while claiming to be a woman that’s a problem, and not all apg is like that.

Xxyzz -women’s rights is not unkind.

Although I really think in general it’s better to step away from the social conditioning that women must be kind. But even without addressing that there is simply nothing unkind about women’s rights.

Seriously, we're not allowed to say that men who like to dress up in women's lingerie are perves now??!!

Lingerie is uncomfortable enough for women, who it is made to fit. 99.999% of the time a man who dons a lacy bra (to support what exactly) or wriggles into some silky pants is doing so for sexual kicks. Why would it be sexually arousing for a man to wear women's underwear? I don't know if a common trope of women wearing men's pants to get their jollies, or stealing men's pants off the washing line...

Why? Because of sexist damaging ideas about women as sex objects is why. That is not a good thing.

If we've all got to sit around pretending that there aren't large numbers of pervy men around whose perversions are based in grotesque views of women and sexuality which of course impacts negatively on women at a society level then we all need to give up and go home don't we.

If Dave from accounts wants to wear a frilly thong under his suit, that's his business, but to pretend it's not sexual is ludicrous.

I'll not saying men shouldn't do it.

I am reserving my right to state that invariably it's a sexual fetish though.

It's a sexual fetish posted on a website where they know women will read it. How can anyone not know what this is about.

Men who want to wear silky lace undies can either campaign for silky laces men’s undies or they can go discuss their kink on kink websites. Same way those into bdsm go discuss what wooden spoon spanks best on bdsm websites not on best housekeeping one.

Stop making out that it’s complicated for men not to make women uncomfortable retro. It’s easy for men to respect women’s boundaries, it’s easy for them to expand manhood to include femininity, it’s easy for them not to make women uncomfortable doing so. The bs rhetoric that us mean women are making it hard for the poor poor menz to know how to act is no different from the bs rhetoric that consent is complicated. It’s just victim blaming bs from mra. Stop trying to manipulate women into doubting what we know is right- men can wear ‘girly’ things without being a girl or a predator. Stop trying to silence women. Telling us we can’t have it both ways is rape apologist language and will be called out here.

Real life wankers are not unknown to be wearing women's undies either.

I have little sympathy for weirdy pervy men because so many of them come with a side helping of exhibitionism so involving others.

If there is a large community of men who are keen on doing this quietly and privately then they need to be policing the large number of men who are pervy weirdos I'd have thought? Clean up their hobby, as it were.

If we're at a point where we have to pretend that men don lacy knickers for comfort then what else are we going to have to pretend.

VMisaMarshmallow - of course women's rights aren't unkind. I am not suggesting they are. Reread what I wrote!

Fraggling et al - feeling a bit People's Front of Judea v Judean People's Front here - think we're all broadly in agreement. Interestingly, in today's Guardian - relevant bit quoted for those who won't read The Guardian: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/26/anonymous-confessions-google-form you can see this: "And finally, wearing knickers is popular - There are so many submissions from men wearing ladies’ underwear that it made me wonder if I’m missing out."

Thanks, Helmetbymidnight

I'm old enough to remember the graffiti of which you speak :) and "wot no women's toilets" had me sniggering. Would make a great sticker. :)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilroy_was_here for those not old enough to remember this.

VMisa I haven’t explained myself clearly.

Men do not belong in women’s changing rooms at all.

Men should however be able to wear ‘women’s’ clothing if they want to and still be men. I think this is helpful for everyone. The trans issue does however complicate it for these people.