Guardian journalist: Don't debate drag

[RoyalCorgi]

Guardian journalists, eh? They never tire of telling women to shut up:

twitter.com/ChrisPJGodfrey/status/1209040941648138240

In relation to the wider topic of this thread, re comparisons that have been made between blackface and 'womanface', as I said, I'm still open to hearing more on this, especially from POC.

I would be against shutting down all discussion of parallels however, as I think there are clear similarities. The two situations are not identical and indeed, no-one is suggesting using the term blackface to describe women's experience.

But given that both black people and women have been caricatured and dehumanised by white people/men respectively, and given that these caricatures and dehumanisation have fed into violence against both groups, learning lessons from that is important for both POC and women, who are trying to fight back against similar attacks from the far right (and in the case of women, also the far left).

I've just received this response to my, escalated initial, complaint about the offensive portrayal of women and insulting/demeaning language featured in the recent series of Ru Paul's Drag Race. This second response is also completely evasive and in no way adequately addresses my specific concerns around the use of insulting terms such as 'Slag' and 'Slapper', and also regarding the insinuations and suggestions that female genitalia is dirty and disgusting:

Thank you for contacting us again. We were sorry to hear you were unhappy with our previous response.We acknowledge you remain unhappy that some men dress up as women and you find it sexist and that you feel we shouldn’t include this or drag queens in our output

Women have long dressed up as men for similar reasons – British artists Vesta Tilley, Hetty King and Ella Shields are just some examples of performers who became famous in their eras for impersonating men. Drag and crossing-dressing is an established form of entertainment

We do not see the similarity that you draw nor do we agree that artists in RuPaul's Drag Race are comparable to a non-black person painting their face to imitate a black person in ‘blackface’ style. Similarly we do not recognise your view that Drag Race is misogynistic. Acts of ‘blackface’ tended to mock and laugh at people while RuPaul’s Drag Race does quite the opposite and respects and pays tribute to women

RuPaul's Drag Race is open to drag artists/performers to apply and take part and performers of any sexual orientation and gender identity are eligible to audition

However we recognise this programme is not for you

Total evasion and standardised response .They have refused to engage with the substance of my complain in any direct or meaningful way. How on earth do/would they justify the use of the words 'slapper' etc, and the word 'fishy'? They can't; so they haven't. The line seems to be we " adore women" we don't hate them. If that is the case, then stop using demeaning terms and insults.

I'll be taking it to the next stage, of course

This is to further my complaint in light of the entirely inadequate response to my initial complaint ( above). None of my specific points were addressed. These were around the offensive use of demeaning words such as 'Slapper', 'Slag' and so on ( words which are used to demean women) - and the insinuation that female genitals are dirty and/or disgusting. Bear baiting and cockerel fighting were around in Tudor times too - but are now considered inappropriate. Likewise heterosexual men dressing, 'mincing' around, and using words such as 'faggot', 'girly boy' and 'poofter' - for the purposes of general entertainment would now, rightly, be considered offensive - even if presented, and highly popular, on our TVs as recently as the 1970's. Please address my specific points, because this issue is not one which is going to disappear any time soon. Just because drag has been a central part of gay male culture does not disguise the inherent misogyny of much of it. Showing repeated adverts on prime time terrestrial TV which depict ugly images of women as ' cows' is not something I want my granddaughter exposed to. Ru Paul has not been without controversy in the U.S either - with trans rights groups deeming it 'transphobic' and not at all inclusive. And the issue of misogynistic content is a discussion and a debate that is also going on in the U.S amongst both the black and white community - with comparisons to 'black face' being made

This is the complaint.

Acts of ‘blackface’ tended to mock and laugh at people while RuPaul’s Drag Race does quite the opposite and respects and pays tribute to women

Calling women 'slappers' and joking about the stink of their genitals is respectful and paying tribute to women? How exactly?

What are they smoking in that office?

Incidentally, can anyone think of any other class of people it would be considered appropriate to laugh about stereotype slurs re how they supposedly smell?

That is revolting, MichelleOfTheResistance! I have never seen that show - how the BBC can defend that is shocking! Just imagine if that had been an insult aimed at TW how different the response would have been.

All they seem to be saying in response to the complaint is, "Oh dear! Poor little snowflake! You do know there are other channels on your moving talkie-picture box thingie, don't you? Try putting some new batteries in the Remote, Boomer! Ps. Thanks for the Licence Fee, Sucker!"

And that's from me as a massive supporter of Publicly Funded Broadcasting and BBC Radio addict!

How very dare they!!!

Actually came here to post this link to a current thread about a Drag Queen who has issued a PSA on Twitter asking that Woke Mums please stop involving their kids in Drag because it is bad for them and bad for Drag.

Kitty Demure - A friendly message to mothers who want their kids influenced by drag

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3799692-Kitty-Demure-A-friendly-message-to-mothers-who-want-their-kids-influenced-by-drag

On the "woman face" thing. I was involved in the earlier thread mentioned. The references to white men donning black face during lynchings, or while transporting black people to lynchings, seem to be VERY recent. The evidence seems to be one or two photos where it is not clear whether actual events are depicted or "staged" enactments. Obviously a subject where anyone doubting the provenance or interpretation of these images is likely to be blasted by a woke firebolt!

The other theme that emerged was that in the USA the "woman face" thing was being used by trans activists to denigrate (has that word been banned yet?) Magdalen Berns for her "Woman Face" video - and would non-USA GC women please stop making things worse by defending use of the term "Woman Face"?

I dipped out of the discussion around about when that explanation was put forward and forgot to go back after the break. I had a lot of sympathy for the black GC feminists in the USA who said they were having a hard time fighting off accusations of being associated with a bunch of white racists in the UK on the basis of Magdalen's "Woman Face" video. Also frustration with the insistence from the USA wokerati that USA history, culture and interpretations trump (ha!) everything else worldwide!

It's as difficult an issue to discuss as Drag when there are such different cultural contexts either side of the pond. Even the Wikipedia link upthread about Drag - it was helpful because another angle, but just that, another angle, not the only one, not definitive and obviously omitting history in other cultures.

On that note - just before Xmas the Religious Right in the USA was having kittens about some recent wokish entertainment event involving cross-dressing. Much foaming at the mouth that it would (obviously!) corrupt kids, trans them, utterly depraved, etc!!

They don't have Panto, of course

A recent development with Panto is, would you believe it (Yes) that while Pantomime Dames are still a staple that Principal Boy is now routinely being played by a bloody man! Not faux outrage at all - how many sodding starring roles are there for young women that this one is being given away?!

While the Principal Boy was usually played by a Big Name in major shows this was a key route in smaller productions for young women to get an Equity Card and employment.

When I saw this happening it did make me wonder about the motives, in these times when a cross-dressing woman is now automatically appropriated as a "transman".

So much is being warped, misappropriated and propagandised, without regard for the impact on women and girls, that I hear alarm bells ringing bloody everywhere!

Calling women 'slappers' and joking about the stink of their genitals is respectful and paying tribute to women? How exactly?

It's gaslighting, isn't it? You silly little woman, all this misogyny is just a thing you're imagining in your little head. Just go and watch something your womanly brain can cope with, like Homes under the Hammer.