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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guardian journalist: Don't debate drag

157 replies

RoyalCorgi · 23/12/2019 13:09

Guardian journalists, eh? They never tire of telling women to shut up:

twitter.com/ChrisPJGodfrey/status/1209040941648138240

OP posts:
53rdWay · 23/12/2019 19:21

Women are allowed to be offended by things. It’s just that we first have to go and find a man to tell us whether it’s okay to be offended or whether we’re worrying our silly little heads over nothing. It’s so lucky for us that so many generous helpful men are so keen to tell us what we can and can’t talk about.

Thelnebriati · 23/12/2019 19:24

Justhadathought
Drag as a cultural phenomenon dates back to Tudor times

Are they referring to those times when women were banned from acting and female parts had to be played by men?

EoinMcLovesCakeJumper · 23/12/2019 19:26

I think that there are some instances of drag being incidental to the humour - the League of Gentlemen fall into that category, because the writers play all of their main characters and some of them happen to be female. I will never not laugh at Steve Pemberton in American tan tights and a big helmet-hair wig. Similarly, Hinge and Bracket were talented musicians and there never seemed to be anything malicious about their act. I can see why some people might not have liked Cissie and Ada but I thought the fact that they looked nothing like women (and weren't really trying to) was all part of the humour.

On the other hand, something like Mrs Brown's Boys offends me because the "humour" depends on him being dressed up as a woman. Oh, look how hilarious it is when a middle aged woman says feck a lot! Tee fucking hee. There's nothing clever about it, it's just a lazy, one-note novelty act.

The Ru Paul style drag queen stuff is so obviously offensive to women that I can't fathom how it has become the sort of cosy teatime family entertainment that can be constantly referenced during Strictly.

Melroses · 23/12/2019 19:31

I think it is related to the Maddonna/Whore thing.

Drag is taking the piss out of the latter. Since any woman is that who does not fit the 'saintly mother' box is the latter, it is not coming from a place of love.

definitelygc · 23/12/2019 19:34

@Michelleoftheresistance you hit the nail on the head. None of us care that much about drag and care more about the fact that we're supposed to spend our lives walking on egg shells lest we accidentally offend anyone and then when a "cis white woman" says "actually I find this offensive" the resounding reply is "shut the fuck up!".

Personally I don't find drag funny as I do always feel like the joke is at my expense. I'm happy for other adults to go and watch it but the idea that it's somehow teaching us all about gender is absurd.

drspouse · 23/12/2019 19:37

what is the difference between black face & woman face?
Black face has been used to commit violence against black people.
So no, it's not the same.

Oakmaiden · 23/12/2019 19:41

@CodenameVillanelle at the risk of being a pain and being told to go and do my own research, I would be interested to see the critiques of the womanface/drag/blackface position. From my own meagre research and knowledge the genesis of these have been fairly similar (as an entertainment form which ridicules the minority being portrayed) but I am not terribly knowledgeable on the subject, and would like to be more so...

OttolenghiPomBear · 23/12/2019 19:49

Cheryl Hole is just a grim, grim name

OttolenghiPomBear · 23/12/2019 19:51

This is quite upsetting. Man (in drag) assaults woman but hey she had it coming
mobile.twitter.com/CherylHoleQueen/status/1206644842018816000

Fraggling · 23/12/2019 20:03

WTF she went flying

Are you allowed to do that?

I've been pushed about by plenty men in my time, I'm little too. Is it different if the man is wearing a frock?

I'm genuinely quite taken aback by that.

Would a big man dancing have got that treatment. Take a wild guess.

MsChnandlerBong · 23/12/2019 20:09

That clip is shocking. He's a big guy and she goes flying! What kind of idiot defends that?

53rdWay · 23/12/2019 20:14

That's really quite worrying. As are all the comments calling her "the Sandra", "the Karen" and laughing about it. Okay drunk spectators shouldn't climb up onto the stage for any performance, but FFS sending someone flying head-first like that? Are you allowed to give women concussions as long as they're "a Sandra" now?

GrinitchSpinach · 23/12/2019 20:17

I hate to link to a right wing religious source (with whose general viewpoint I do not agree at all!) but Lifesitenews is one of the only places on the internet you can still view the photos originally published by the Multnomah County Library to its own Flickr stream of a male person dressed as "Carla Rossi" encouraging young children at Drag Queen Story Hour to climb on/drape themselves over Rossi's prone body.

I attach one example, but there are more:
www.lifesitenews.com/images/local/files/PDFs/Drag_queen_child_abuse.pdf

Does the Guardian really wish to take the editorial position that the increasing promotion of Carla Rossi's act and similar is up for "no debate"?

CodenameVillanelle · 23/12/2019 20:18

@Oakmaiden here is a good thread and tweeter to follow. Look in her timeline and you'll see plenty of discussion. I found it very enlightening. twitter.com/kprotein19/status/1194668900715319303?s=21

TheGoldenNotebook · 23/12/2019 22:56

@drspouse I'm really confused? Are you suggesting that there is no male violence against women? Are you suggesting that men who dress as women do not commit violence against women? Are you saying that, for example, those who performed in lack and white minstrel shows committed violence against black people and that men who dress as women don't commit violence against women?

TheGoldenNotebook · 23/12/2019 22:57

Black

BlueCornsihPixie · 23/12/2019 23:17

Lol at no debate. There is a debate mate. Just because you say there isn't doesn't mean there actually isn't. Does he think women are so thick they are just going to roll over and go "okay, a man has spoken" and forget all our opinions?

What he actually means is "I know women have differing opinions but I don't give a shit about them".

NotBadConsidering · 24/12/2019 03:01

So much more time and effort these days is spent debating whether a topic is up for debate, rather than actually debating the topic.

It’s all so meta, and depressing.

WatchingTheMoon · 24/12/2019 03:17

This person hasn't put their pronouns, how can I know how to refer to him/her/them/xer?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 24/12/2019 04:35

Maybe if drag queens weren't violently shoving women and being praised for doing so there wouldn't be so many people wanting to debate this. Food for thought, eh?

2BthatUnnoticed · 24/12/2019 04:37

As an aside, it’s very heartening that a lot of feminists are now critiquing drag (very effectively) without the fall back comparison to Blackface. Genuinely, it shows strength of argument.

I wish TRAs would likewise stop saying TWAW JL BWAW, which is the other side of the coin.

(For those who missed it there was a long thread on this very point, I’m on phone and can’t link but if you google “Blackface, womanface, offensive” it should come up.)

Justhadathought · 24/12/2019 12:12

I know wikipedia is heavily edited , but here is what the drag 'wikipedia page has to say:

Development of the drag queen in the United States started with the development of the blackface minstrel show.[28] Originally the performers would only mock African American men, but as time went on they found it amusing to mock African American femininity as well. They performed in comedic skits, dances, and "wench" songs.[29] These minstrel shows and their "wench players" were used by white men to both mock and oppress women and African Americans

Justhadathought · 24/12/2019 12:15

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_queen

Justhadathought · 24/12/2019 12:15

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_queen

Justhadathought · 24/12/2019 12:27

medium.com/4th-wave-feminism/is-drag-misogynistic-553a0fed47b5 : 'Is Drag Misogynistic? It’s time to stop letting sexist gay men off the hook'........

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