Guardian journalist: Don't debate drag

[RoyalCorgi]

Guardian journalists, eh? They never tire of telling women to shut up:

twitter.com/ChrisPJGodfrey/status/1209040941648138240

I'm using the word cis in reply to above poster not because I think it has any actual meaning.

'Cis people' presumably includes the gay men who do drag in the first place
These people are so inconsistent

It won't be women who will take down drag, men don't listen to us. It will be the trans lobby (who have their own reasons for disliking it and also dislike 'cis' gay white men).

At which point all these woke bro's will reverse ferret because 'inclusion' and agree that it is indeed a very bad thing.

I await the eventual LOJ think piece on it.

"It's not a debate" baffles me. Even if you think drag is ultimately wonderful and lovely for men and women alike, surely you can see why some women might dislike it, whether or not you agree with them?

I'm not going to pretend that I understood this but I know the issue came up September/October and a number of people applauded this thread that argues (?) that blackface and womanface are not comparable.

twitter.com/sapphic_kitty/status/1175486857016201217?s=20

It's not straightforward to navigate the above thread as you seem to have to need to select particular tweets to see the offshoot womanface discussion. (I'm recovering from some surgery so my concentration etc. are quite poor.)

Irrespective of what anyone thinks about drag, there is something rather comical about opinion writers who don't like other people having opinions.

How utterly pathetic that a commissioning editor on a national newspaper should protect his tweets so that people can't see them, just because some people disagreed with him.

Glad a PP got a screenshot.

Isn't it amazing, though? Telling women they can't have an opinion about something that is directly about them. Where's the self-knowledge? Why don't they see what a bad look that is?

Feel a bit conflicted and I think it's about context. As someone who grew up in the era of The Two Ronnie's, (which is weirdly still funny), I believe its the intent.
What I object to about Drag Race etc.. Is the sexual fetish weirdness mysoginy about it.,which I think is demeaning to women and and insulting. It doesn't have to be so, but it is.

People may argue that I am prudish and puritanical, as as a female from pre-birth, I know when male behaviour feels wrong and creepy.

Also to be told that it's not up for discussion (without irony) is again the reason why women are angry.
I have always known those right-on male types were incredibly controlling, even before their more recent labels and fashion choices.

I find drag offensive. I've read the debate around the term "woman face" but to me that's what it is - a parody of womanhood. Being told I'm not "allowed" to debate it by a bunch of men is par for the course. I'd call them twats but they lack the depth...

I grew up in a similar era shed when men dressed as women for laughs was a staple-

Two Ronnies
Dick Emery
Kenny Everett
Plus more, it was a common thing oh how funny

I was a little kid and it made me feel uncomfortable, like I didn't really get the joke, or something. Now I realise it was because they were taking the piss out of women and of course I was female. It was the same feeling of discomfort when there were jokes involving 'sexy ladies' - that was all over the place too.

I've never liked drag at all and do totally take it as the dominant class mocking subordinate class. Punching down in the worst way.

And they're always obsessed with breasts as well which is a clue it's not a joyful celebration as people seem to like to claim. Always with the massive comedy tits.

Oh but I'm not allowed to say ANY of that as a man at the guardian had said it's not allowed.

He can go fuck himself. People might not agree with me but why should I be disallowed from expressing my genuine views and feelings around drag.

I still like The Two Ronnie's though, Kenny Everett was vile, Dick Emery very very weird.

Does anyone remember The Two Ronnie's sketch The Worm That Turned with Diana Doors. Even as a feminist I can still laugh at that.

Is there any way to tell him that he has an opinion. That wanting to discuss a thing doesn't necessarily mean everyone disagrees with him.

If he entered into discussion he might find he has a persuasive argument... or is that too much to ask of someone whose living is made writing what we could hope are persuasive, interesting articles.

Or is shut up bitch what passes for journalism these days?

The comments Sharron is getting are foul.

See some Kenny Everett stuff I still find funny apart from when he's got huge plastic breasts on and is called Cupid stunt ha fucking ha.

Two Ronnies fork handles etc classic bit again, just find it uncomfortable when they drag up.

I've just honestly been uncomfortable with it since I was little and that's just the way it is for me. At least now I have worked out why!

The only differences between drag and trans is the degree of delusion in the man pretending to be a woman, and extent to which they have costumed up.

To women who perceive them the effect is the same.

God I loathe The Guardian

I was always rather fond of Cissie and Ada on Les Dawson. It seemed to reflect reality in the part of Northern England I was growing up in.

Putting it another way, Cissie and Ada were far more reflective of reality to me than Barbara and Margo in The Good Life.

I have just been on YouTube to watch The Two Ronnie's - The Worm That Turned from 1980.

It is both cringewothy in its sexism but strangely edgy in the context of the gender/trans stuff of today (and I still find it funny). Diana Doors is magnificent.
It is set in 2012 when women have taken over the country and are ruling with an iron fist. Men have been made to wear traditional femal clothes, and the women wear the trousers.
Men are forming resistance groups to fight back.
I do recommend a look.

The arrogance of people saying these things are not up for discussion?! It would be horrifically ironic if it was the trans lobby that managed to stop it and not actual women...

Dressing up as female characters who are funny (two Ronnies, Cis & Ada) - fine. Dressing up because it’s funny to be female - not fine.

This is why it is like the Black and White Minstrels. It’s the same - it’s just laughing at the concept of black people - ugh what could be more ridiculous. Likewise drag is laughing at women. The way we look. The way we smell . It’s not a humorous look at women’s lives and the funny bits therein. It’s a laugh at the very idea of being a woman because that in itself is funny. It’s why gay men do it.

Man informs women what they are and are not allowed to debate in society.

Women wonder why said man (or anyone really with a grip on reality) should think anyone gives a fuck about what they personally 'allow', and carry on as they were.

When I was a child I used to feel uncomfortable with drag but wasn't really sure why. As Fraggling points out, there was a ton of this stuff in the 70s - the Two Ronnies, Dick Emery, Danny la Rue, Les Dawson and Dame Edna Everage. You could argue that the Les Dawson character was more affectionate than nasty but there was still a mocking quality to it. And big breasts were obviously the most hilarious thing of all.

The truth is, at the root of all this stuff is a hatred of women. It's punching down, to use a term that's in vogue. But because it's women rather than gay people, or black people, or trans people, it's accepted as OK.