Guardian journalist: Don't debate drag

[RoyalCorgi]

Guardian journalists, eh? They never tire of telling women to shut up:

twitter.com/ChrisPJGodfrey/status/1209040941648138240

Yes, that's how I see things Binterested. Thinking further I'd say that Dame Edna Everage has much in common with Mrs Merton. Both being presentations of women but both lacking the misogyny present in much of drag.

Yes Les Dawson hooking bosoms.

Hilarious.

Hoiking.

Who would have thought that in 2019 Kenny Everett would be back demanding to use women's toilets and compete in Women's sports

Open criticism of drag is one of the inevitable consequences of the unwitting embrace of radical trans ideology........and such discussion & criticism will become more prevalent the more it is forced down our throats via mainstream media.

There is already a thread on FWR on the subject of drag -with quite extensive discussion. The case against some of the language and portrayals of womanhood common in drag has no good response... and people know it.

It's the fact that lots of drag acts don't DO anything. Edna Everage would have been funny played by a woman as would Hinge and Bracket. But the RuPaul people.. Just dress up

Thanks for contacting us about RuPaul’s Drag Race UK.

Drag as a cultural phenomenon dates back to Tudor times and has been established as a form of entertainment for many years. It has since become a mainstay of UK Christmas pantomime and has been absorbed into mainstream entertainment on UK television with notable performers such Danny LaRue, Paul O’Grady, Barry Humphries and, of course, RuPaul.

Here is the initial response to my complaint to the BBC on the subject of Ru Paul's Drag Race

"For the past decade RuPaul's Drag Race has entertained fans around the world and has won four Emmy Awards doing so. We are excited to be able to bring the first ever UK show to BBC Three.

We recognise it is not for you but please be assured your views have been brought to the attention of the senior management"

Clearly not an adequate response......and here is my further response - still waiting reply

"This is to further my complaint in light of the entirely inadequate response to my initial complaint ( above). None of my specific points were addressed. These were around the offensive use of demeaning words such as 'Slapper', 'Slag' and so on ( words which are used to demean women) - and the insinuation that female genitals are dirty and/or disgusting. Bear baiting and cockerel fighting were around in Tudor times too - but are now considered inappropriate. Likewise heterosexual men dressing, 'mincing' around, and using words such as 'faggot', 'girly boy' and 'poofter' - for the purposes of general entertainment would now, rightly, be considered offensive - even if presented, and highly popular, on our TVs as recently as the 1970's. Please address my specific points, because this issue is not one which is going to disappear any time soon. Just because drag has been a central part of gay male culture does not disguise the inherent misogyny of much of it. Showing repeated adverts on prime time terrestrial TV which depict ugly images of women as ' cows' is not something I want my granddaughter exposed to. Ru Paul has not been without controversy in the U.S either - with trans rights groups deeming it 'transphobic' and not at all inclusive. And the issue of misogynistic content is a discussion and a debate that is also going on in the U.S amongst both the black and white community - with comparisons to 'black face' being made"

Comedy drag isn't always bad. It would be hypocritical to say it was because I love The League of Gentlemen and Portlandia (where the drag goes both ways). Stuff like Drag Race I have no time for though and I'm not keen on performers who build their whole act and persona on being a woman.

I see it as part of queer culture. Same as drag Kings. And tbh there's bigger fish to fry, like the pay gap, violence against women and all that shit. Someone local to me died last week after police ignored her pleas about her stalker ex and now her kids have no mum and a murderer for a father. How do people have the energy to be mad at drag. Saying that, I can see why some see it that way. It does paint femininity as something ridiculous. But then I do think femininity is a ridiculous social construct, same as toxic masculinity.

How the journalist responded is shit though. And it's shite when women's views get muted on the subject in favour of liberal/lefty men's.

• I meant hyper femininity/performative femininity

General feminine traits being mocked is a greyer area. It does seem hateful.

How do people have the energy to be mad at drag

We didn't during all of those years tolerating it in the name of support for our gay friends - even though we never liked it and actually found it insulting and offensive.....but times have changed......and now it is being force fed by the likes of the BBC and 'Drag Queen story Time' for children. I'm no longer willing to say nothing.

It is entirely possible to have criticisms of several different things all at once. Like Jo Swinson might say "It's not a pie"....

Lorraine Kelly is a fool then

General feminine traits being mocked is a greyer area. It does seem hateful

It is o.k, it would suggest, to use words like 'Slag' and 'Slapper' for general entertainment purposes, but try using the word 'faggot' and 'bum-boy' for the same and see where that gets you.......Owen Jones would be up in arms......

There is a fond place in my heart for Little Britain

It looks like the drag umbrella is very wide and all kinds of thing fall under it from less problematic characterisations of women as people to misogynist parodies accompanied by horrible language to demean women.

It looks like the drag umbrella is very wide and all kinds of thing fall under it from less problematic characterisations of women as people to misogynist parodies accompanied by horrible language to demean women.

That sums up very well my feelings about it

I saw the sapphic kitty womanface/ blackface discussion, too, Arran, and I found it a convincing argument. HOWEVER, that's someone (me, you, probably others) deciding not to use a comparison any more because reasons were given, it was debated, and we were won over. That is a far more effective way to stop people saying offensive things, especially well-intentioned people. Saying #nodebate is just cartoonish: "DON'T DO IT BECAUSE I SAY SO."

'Saying that, I can see why some see it that way. It does paint femininity as something ridiculous.'

Certainly in my day female sex characteristics were mocked

Breasts
Calling women fish

And then there is the double offence that women and girls are socialised/ coerced into performing femininity for the male gaze, and that is then used as a stick to beat us with.

The crass characterisations of female personality 'types' is also male pigeonholing of women as 2D, not whole rounded people, which again much drag focuses in on.

Yeah I've never liked it since I was a kid and that's kind of that really.

I don't call it woman face but can understand why some do.

I understand the objections but on the other thread thought the global worldwide fact of women's oppression was downplayed.

We've done all that on the other thread though.

I don't necessarily mind drag, it really depends and I don't think it's always much about women per se, and I don't mind male performers dressing up as women in sketch comedy at all.

But why "not a debate"? If some people don't really like it, or have a problem with it, it pretty much is a debate, isn't it? You might say, this isn't a concern many people share, so I don't think I will write a column about it, but then you aren't going to tell others not to if they care.

It goes along with a type of headline you see a lot in The Guardian "People Need to..." or "We Must All..."

There are a lot of articles in the vein of telling people what they must do or think, rather than trying to be really persuasive, presenting it as something that the author thinks or some group wants to convince us all of. The sense is they have some sort of moral authority.

It's the fact that lots of drag acts don't DO anything. Edna Everage would have been funny played by a woman as would Hinge and Bracket. But the RuPaul people.. Just dress up

Reality tv contests are 99% of the time degraded versions of the real thing. You don't watch American Idol realistically hoping to see an Aretha Franklin.

Dame Edna made good use of her actual maleness in her humour, I think. I recently watched an old interview she did with Ivana Trump and k.d Lang, and it was completely hilarious.

There are a lot of articles in the vein of telling people what they must do or think, rather than trying to be really persuasive, presenting it as something that the author thinks or some group wants to convince us all of. The sense is they have some sort of moral authority

Exactly this.

I am also not personally annoyed/offended by drag. I can't see the actual harm.

But increasingly people are being told that they shouldn't be talking/thinking/having an opinion about something. It's very annoying and I can't fathom how people think that telling other people they can't debate something will work. Whenever someone is saying "no debate" I invariably go and find out about it myself.

Whenever someone is saying "no debate" I invariably go and find out about it myself.

Yes. I have a pretty strong contrarian streak, and I find I have to exercise a significant amount of self-control not to take the opposite view without giving the whole thing fair consideration.

I think most emotionally healthy people signal a 'back up nutjob' when a total stranger tries to dictate to them what they should and shouldn't do.

It doesn't matter how I personally feel about drag: the fact stands that more and more people are saying 'I find this offensive'. Now usually everyone runs around like headless chickens desperate to prevent any offensive or possibly politically incorrect or insensitive actions.

Isn't it funny that when it's only women who mind/are affected that suddenly is ok? It's like the UK's knee deep in misogyny and women are oppressed or something. (And we still definitely can tell which sex people are...… no one tell Judge Tayler.)

The Guardian: Women, do as we say; think as we tell you to; say what we tell you to say.

Also The Guardian: The Guardian is dying, please everyone give us money so we can keep going. For the sake of quality journalism.

Women: Um...