I mean... yes, that's the point

[Bagger288]

Honestly. These people are so open minded their brains have fallen out. That's the entire point we're trying to make!!

Can't facepalm hard enough. Every time, its like they come sooo close to getting it then at the last moment veer off.

Tbh I can't get too worked up about all this gender identity stuff...

But even I facepalmed that one. And said "well, duh" out loud. In public. 😳

The common factor is having a penis.

Men with a penis enjoying making women with a vagina being uncomfortable for their own gratification and power trip.

Men's voices count, women have to acquiesce.

I once explained to an young person that Agatha Christie's "And Then There Were None" was orginally titled something else.

"But that's Racist!" she cried.

I nodded.

My problem is with predatory people who have, or have ever had, a penis.

And the statistics that show trans women are less likely to be predatory than the rest of the male population are where exactly?

Most men are not predatory

• by the facebook posts position is therefore there should be open season in changing rooms refuges and prisons to all non predatory men and trans women.

Sorted.

I have this argument with a lot of people.

When the time comes that no one bats an eyelid at a man walking into a female only space because ‘they may identify as female’ is the time we’re most at risk.

People say I’m not being accepting (very unlike me because I’m completely in the camp of do/be/love who you like as long as you’re not hurting anyone) but my argument is, while you still have the appendage that is used to rape people, get out of my women only space. It’s women only for a reason.

My problem is with men in female spaces. Both the predators, and the non predators who call themselves something other than men.

I'm entitled to privacy from men, every man. And even if a magic filter could exclude all predators but let through all men who won't (physically) hurt me, I still would object.

Either my sex has the right to refuse consent to the opposite sex, or it doesn't.
Either my sex has the right to distinguish itself from the opposite sex, or it doesn't.

Aw, bless!

And she thinks she is making such a profound thought provoking point!

Either my sex has the right to refuse consent to the opposite sex, or it doesn't.
Either my sex has the right to distinguish itself from the opposite sex, or it doesn't.

I agree. I often say it, but I don't want to disrobe in front of my father-in-law, nor my teen son's mates, nor my husband's friends.

I honestly think people have an image in their head that doesn't shift. They see an archetypal, effeminate, tentative man. They see the power lying with themself.

Perhaps it's all down to a lack of imagination!

Take that amazing revelation you've had and think on it a leeetle bit more. Connect the dots. Go on. You're almost there. You can do it!

Perhaps it's all down to a lack of imagination

I was going to say some people really are turning out to be thick. But I think what you said is probably closer and definitely kinder. Not everyone has capacity for strong imagination. That's OK. As of course is low IQ. It's nobody's individual fault. But I do think people with power ought to be able to exhibit certain cognitive and empathic capabilities. Otherwise we're all a bit fucked.

I decided last night that I am not a TERF, I am a PPERF - a Predatory Penis Exclusionary Radical Feminist. I think I need a badge.

Stilla....I think we are all a bit fucked.

I don't see any way for the lib fems and their darlings to back out of this thinking. They criminalize anyone who disagrees with their delusional magical thinking.

No intention of goading, I'm genuinely a bit confused....

What is everyone worried about?

It's been years since I saw a shared fitting room in a shop - most have individual cubicles.

Our leisure centre has had a recent re-fit... no more male / female changing spaces, just a huge area of individual cubicles.

Public toilets are individual cubicles too.

So what are people worried about? That someone in the next cubicle might have a concealed penis?

If it is a fear of being attacked or raped, then do people not realise that this happens most frequently in a victim's own home, by someone they know.

I don't get it. Is this just the latest thing for people to argue about / form strong opinions on?

mummyduckduck
"Women's spaces" is not just changing rooms - thought they seem to get the most attention.
"Women's spaces" are also loos, shelters, female only gym/swim sessions, female sports, 'girls only' nights out, lesbian social groups, mums (not parents) groups, hospital services (breast examinations and gynaecological), hospital wards, YMCA dorms ...

It's not just about fear of being attacked - though that is a part of it - it's also about having a space away from men (including female penis owners or whatever they're called now).

They take their girly privileges for granted. Winning at female sports and having their own toilets. Well, enough is enough.

Enough is enough mummy duck duck

No more women’s sports no more scholarships for them girls to go to college because they don’t train hard enough

Enough is enough

mummyduckduck
As an example think about Hampstead ponds: there used to be one for men, one for women, and one for mixed use - what could be fairer than that? Everybody was catered for.
For some penis owners this was not enough. They insisted that they must use the women's pond as well. Now they have access to all three, and women no longer have a place away from the male gaze.

mummyduckduck
Mixed sex changing rooms are associated with more than an 800% increase in sexual attacks on women, and also increase the risk of voyeurism and hidden cameras.

The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms.
Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7638537/Cameras-hidden-primary-schools-toilets-FIVE-years.html

Some examples here mummyduckduck

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Thanks @aliasundercover

You still wouldn't walk around such places with your genitals out though would you? So is it only trans-women that look masculine that people object to?

I've been trying to do a bit of reading since posting and I understand the difficulties / sensitivities with prisons, and that obviously needs careful consideration.

On the whole though, this seems to be talked about much more than it is occurring? Perhaps I am naive and live in a very sheltered area.

For places of discussion I don't mind having blokes around, so would have no objection to a trans-woman. My team at work has recently been joined by a male (other males in the wider establishment, but first in our little office). We still talk very openly about periods, childbirth, sex, anything that crops up. He joins in in what I consider to be an appropriate and inoffensive manner. Am I just lucky to have had no negative experiences that make me have an objection?

Oooh lots of responses while I was typing. I'll have a read. Thank you.

Mixed sex spaces exclude women, so I don't get how they are inclusive. I'm not being goady I'm just genuinely confused why you can't see that many women cannot use them.

How do you feel excluded @Thelnebriati ?

I get the sports competition thing, that makes sense. Is it a sense of fear in other areas?