I mean... yes, that's the point

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Honestly. These people are so open minded their brains have fallen out. That's the entire point we're trying to make!!

Sorry that was long!

After reading about this creep nothing makes me doubt the lengths some men will go to, to spy on women for their own perverted pleasure:

metro.co.uk/2013/07/09/peeping-tom-arrested-after-hiding-in-septic-tank-and-staring-at-people-using-the-toilet-3874756/amp/

That sounds awful @thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter I'm glad you managed to get out.

I must have lulled myself into a false sense of security. I had seen the mixed changing rooms as a bonus as it meant that my DP could take DD to her swimming lessons if I was working late. Horrifying to think that people would take advantage of public places like that.

I will also say mummyduckduck, that there is something incredibly powerful and liberating, even for women with no history of abuse or other deeply held need, to have a female-only space.

You've bumped up against some anger here, which is an unfortunate consequence of some extremely unpleasant people coming here with the express intention to spin and goad and dispute that women need or have any rights except by permission of men.

Trust me, when you find a space which is female only, there is a quality that is just not replicated anywhere else. I am lucky enough to have a few of those places now, and I cannot emphasize enough how healing it is, even if you aren't aware how wounded you have been from the lack of it.

Just to put a positive perspective on this topic, which us so often couched in negative reasons.

How are we supposed to tell predatory men from transwomen meaning no harm?
Why do we have to bring up rape and ptsd (and all the other shit that happens to women) to justify saying no?
Why is it not okay to say no? Just no. Why do we have to keep explaining? It is not so difficult to understand - the basis of consent is the acceptance of a woman (or indeed anyone) saying no. If you do not accept women saying no, for whatever reason, then you are undermining the fundamental principle of consent.

How to make this happen, how to make everyone feel safe and comfortable, is a real problem.

Not really. And certainly not one women need to solve. And I don't think it's helpful to pretend this is oh so very complex. My four year old knows which changing room to use so it can't really be a matter for the greatest minds of our time to grapple with can it?

Thanks mummyduckduck, that's the problem though isn't it, due to male perverts they ruin it for everyone else - hence the anger.

@Mummystupidname do you think something magically happens to a male person that stops them being predatory when they no longer have a penis? Or when they declare themselves a woman?

Do you think the fact that you've apparently been exceptionally lucky and had zero negative experiences with men makes the millions of abused and assaulted women and children safe?

Same old faux naive shit, different day.

And can I just say, given that I've seen it happen more than once in the last week, that I suspect regulars might need to keep their powder dry, as JK has brought the topic a much higher profile and there are still many women who have not spent years uncovering all this and the consequences of it.
I think the ratio of trolls to genuine newbies might suddenly be a little different...

Yes i am as cynical as they come but I think that mummymummyduck came with a genuine question.

I have had my arse handed to me here before mummymummyduck. As has just about everyone

I have had my arse handed to me here before mummymummyduck. As has just about everyone
It's a rite of passage.

Mummyduckduck

You are ridiculous. You don't care about women at all.

Mummymummyduck has said that she has now seen our point.

It isn't just the changing room thing. It's statistics, funding and services. If the XX category of woman is erased and anyone can 'be' a woman then crime statistics are squewed. Records of 'women' raping people and being violent? Is that OK? Same for medical statistics, education, how many women in business? Women are discriminated against because of our sex, we bear children, are weaker, have children, periods, maternity leave. That doesn't count for shit if men can be women and nobody is allowed to even say otherwise.

IMO there is no chance these people are as naive and unknowing as they claim to be. So no need for a facepalm.

Promoters and monetary backers of this idea know exactly what they are doing, and the effect it has, and will have. Do not fall for Be kind, or doesn’t bother me, etc etc.

@RuffleCrow I said I had been fortunate, not that I have zero negative experiences. My most negative experiences occurred in my own home (as many do), I do not associate that fear with public spaces and I do not generalise the actions of one man to half of the population. That said, I know many have different experiences, opinions, knowledge etc, hence me wanting to learn more.

I agree with your comments on statistics @marvellousnightforamooncup . There's a risk of the data becoming totally nonsensical and useless.

I'm not falling for anything. But I'm not necessarily going to assume that female socialization is no longer a thing. Not every viper in this nest started out with the give no fucks badass-ness of AngryAttackKittens. Some of us were liberal minded women just struggling to get through with the burdens of every day life and hadn't even thought about any of this.

I'm not telling anyone they need to constantly reiterate things - I myself was in no mood to do it yesterday. But I do think judicious and free use of the Break It Down For Me thread would be an extremely good thing.

I find that lots of your people are naive and don't think that self-identifying trans women could be predatory.
When I talk to my teen daughters about women losing rights they don't want to listen.
I think social media are brainwashing young people that trans women are women.

As if you can't be a "trans woman" AND a predator. They aint mutally exclusive and we have names to prove it.

It's not about "generalising re half the population" @mdd it's about taking reasonable precautions to try and give the other (physically weaker) half protection from the predatory members of the (physically stronger) opposite sex.

Every single time i have to write the bleeding obvious about men being much, much stronger than women, i just know there's at least one man sat jacking off to the endless, pointless repetition of our pathetic and blatantly obvious physical weakness.

Stop making me state the fucking obvious! Go read a GCSE biology textbook or something if you're that unaware of reality. Might help when the time comes.

I do not generalise the actions of one man to half of the population

No one does, thats not what PTSD is. At one point I was on a mixed sex psychiatric ward with, among other people, a veteran with shell shock.

It is a much more complex topic than I had realised
No, it really isn't very complex at all.

No men in women's spaces without exception.
No to being forced to lie and acquiesce to a false reality.
No to self-id
No to the erosion of women's rights.

I’m about where you are @mummyduckduck I have been aware of the issue but to be honest my head and has been fully focused on brexit and the absolute cluster fuck that is going to be for Northern Ireland along with our lack of assembly, the dire impact that is having on everyday life, lack of access for women to abortion in Northern Ireland and so on and so on.

I mean I’ve been very skeptical about those who are very pro-trans rights, baffled by the conflation between sex and gender and confused as to why anyone would think putting someone with a penis in a women’s prison, I haven’t been totally deaf to the narrative, I just hasn’t processed what it all meant. Then about two days ago when the whole Maya judgement blew up I found I had the headspace to process it all and got incredibly angry. I’ve now been called a transphobe by at least two people on Twitter for pointing out that biological sex is an actual thing...

It is a bit of a headfuck if you’re used to taking a liberal stance and a live and let live attitude to suddenly have such a loud crowd decrying your views as bigoted. I wouldn’t want a man who feels he was born in the wrong body to be persecuted for it, but equally I know he will never be the same sex as me, he will always biologically be a man. I’m raging (but not massively surprised) that some men have the audacity to try and redefine womanhood and baffled that some women are cheerleading this. My view is evolving though and My thoughts not yet coherently ordered.

I totally get the skepticism of some on this thread to questions though as I’m well versed in how much of a troll magnet this site can be.

It's not just one man who has ever raped, beaten or killed a woman. Attacks on women are not one offs. We are dying and being hurt and violated by the male class. Namalt is no defence or excuse. In general men are a danger to women and children.

I do not generalise the actions of one man to half of the population.

Generally though it’s representatives of one half of the population that sexually assault members of the other half.

Bidermann’s chart of coercion is illustrative here. One of the ways control works is monopoly of perception. Every time a woman has to explain why they do not wish same-sex space to be compromised, their perception is monopolised, they are not thinking about other aspects of their lives which would allow them to progress. They are stuck on a loop explaining the same things over and over again in the hope that it will make a difference; all the while being unable to get on with other things - because if they turn away and focus on other things, they will find their same sex provision and rights eroded.

One should not have to explain that PTSD and the experiences of rape survivors are NOT generalising the actions of one man to the whole of the population but trauma responses do not discriminate, that same sex space allows a feeling of safety and retreat in public space; that the vast majority of sexual assaults and rapes are carried out by men; all of this information is publicly available - and yet women have to keep on saying it over and over so as not to be labelled bigots. It steals our time.