I mean... yes, that's the point

[Bagger288]

Honestly. These people are so open minded their brains have fallen out. That's the entire point we're trying to make!!

most men I know would be horrified at sharing intimate spaces with women. My father and my son both refuse to use shared toilets. They would both be horrified with shared changing rooms (either single cubicle or communal) or sharing a hospital ward.

So I think we have to ask ourselves who are the people who are pushing for this and why?

^This.

Either my sex has the right to refuse consent to the opposite sex, or it doesn't.
Either my sex has the right to distinguish itself from the opposite sex, or it doesn't.

This is it in a nutshell.
Every single trans activist, handmaiden and pusher of sex stereotypes and witless ‘why can’t you just be nice’ type needs to own what they’re doing. They’re campaigning for taking away rights from women. They are not their rights to give away.

Mummyduckduck, it really doesn’t matter whether you personally are comfortable with mixed sex facilities or not. You cannot speak for the women who are NOT. Their rights to privacy, safety and dignity are not yours to give away.

@Babdoc I have no intention of speaking for anyone else. I didn't understand and I wanted to.... so I asked.

Apologies for any offence caused by my naivety. It is only my intention to learn, not to influence anyone else.

For those that have explained, I do not disagree with you, and armed with the information provided, would be inclined to agree with the general consensus of those in this thread.

I just find it rather sad that some of the responses are so hostile.

"For those that have explained, I do not disagree with you, and armed with the information provided, would be inclined to agree with the general consensus of those in this thread."

For a 'woman in her 30s' this should NOT be news to you mummyduckduck

It is womens LIVED experience.

Everyday.

Across all female communities.

"I just find it rather sad that some of the responses are so hostile."

'Women be nice and shut up'

Muppets. Muppets everywhere.

Mummymummyduck we get loads of people coming here trying to derail threads with false naivety. People are naturally suspicious and fed up with those disruptors.

I'm glad you have understood the issue. There are some great threads which outline the problem in more detail. Many people come here feeling that they don't understand and a day/week/month later are those arguing most vehemently against this existential threat to women's safety and rights.

Try searching for the thread 'can you break it down for me' for a great intro.

Thanks @EvenSupposing I wasn't aware of that, but yes it must be frustrating. I'll head off and look for that thread now and have a read.

Faux fragile airheadedness combined with lecturing and total inability to understand the fear of being actually not sexily I turn myself on by being what I perceive as desireably femme vulnerable tells me everything I need to know.

I never was good at shutting up. I tried. Do I get points for trying?

I will say that I am personally OK with sharing changing rooms etc with trans women but I also totally understand there are other women who are not able to feel comfortable, often because they are survivors of male sexual abuse and/or violence.

I guess I have been lucky not to have been, and I don't have this fear about men that a lot of women have, but I'm not going to just say other women are being irrational or silly (or bigoted) just because I don't feel that way. I have listened to other women's experiences and recognised their concerns as that's what women should do for each other. Not say 'Shut up, you're a bigot' or 'X or Y never happens'

I get what people are saying about being ok sharing with TW...

But really? My gym has a completely communal changing area in which women are all nude, most of them without making any attempt to do any wriggling around under a towel (which is fine/great/good to see people not being body conscious).

I cannot imagine what introducing an intact male into that scenario would do but I am absolutely sure that every single woman would change their behaviour. Every one. Even if it was by ostentatiously refusing to acknowledge that anything had changed. It is absolutely inconceivable to me that any female would not be discomfitted by it.

Mummy duck

I don’t want my three daughters - primary and secondary school age - to have less rights than me

I don’t want them forced to undress in front of ‘adults with penises’ and for ‘adults with penises’ to be legally entitled to undress in front of them in communal female changing rooms. Adults with penises - collective noun - men.

Where is their safety, privacy and dignity this debate? No where...No one cares about young girls. Collateral damage.

Amnesty etc should hang their heads in shame...

Thanks for recommending the other thread @EvenSupposing . I'm still ploughing my way through (lots of info & links). I had never heard of autogynephiles before and didn't even know that was a thing. Having read about that, no wonder people are concerned. Feel rather disturbed now to be honest.

I dislike the idea of open changing rooms regardless, so I'm thankful that our local facilities have individual cubicles.

I appear to have found the angry ones..

If one isn't angry then one doesn't understand.

Feel rather disturbed now to be honest.

The anger will come next?

So nice watching someone go 'oh...right!'

@mummyduckduck - I hope this thread has been helpful for you.

Most people coming on to ask the sort of questions you ask - and there are a lot of them - have absolutely no intention of listening and learning, which is why you've had the reception you've had. You've also had some patient souls explain things in a way that hopefully helps you to understand.

I'm a liberal lefty. I've always been completely supportive of LGBT rights, I have close family members and many friends in that community.

A few years ago now, I unquestioningly supported trans rights and trans women's belief that 'transwomen are women' (note: it's rare you hear transmen angrily and vociferously insisting that 'transmen are men').

But Mumsnet opened my eyes. Opened them big time.

I'm like you. Pretty 'sheltered'. I mean, I've lived and travelled in the world. But the men around me are all nice, non-predatory types, I've never been raped or sexually assaulted (countless low level stuff, of course).

I don't need to have any personal issues or concerns, because I'm one of the lucky ones.

But it's not just about me, it is?

Women have women-only spaces because we (as a group) need them. Not very individual (like you, or me) will need all of them, or perhaps even any of them. But most women will need to access at least some of those spaces at some point in time. And they need to be able to make their own decisions about what they consent to.

Likewise, predatory men don't come with a handy sign. Men are also physically stronger than women.

Sport. I've never really played sport. Not my thing. Never really watched it. But even I can see how impotent we women are as a group, standing by, watching male-bodied people (men) infiltrating our competitions and cheating.

Women's rights - 50% of the population - are being seriously eroded for a tiny, vocal, minority.

I have found it useful thanks @MerchantOfVenom and appreciate those who have taken time to explain.

It is a much more complex topic than I had realised.

The other thing @mummyduckduck is that the vast majority of TW - above 80% have no surgery at all & retain their functioning penis

It is a much more complex topic than I had realised.

You have no idea
(Neither did I 18 months ago)
I'm glad you didn't flounce when you saw angry women!

It is a much more complex topic than I had realised.

I think there are a lot of people who have been where you are and have suddenly realised how much has been hidden from them.

I'm also one of the lucky ones.
Yes, I encountered a few sleazeballs when I was a young woman, say up to my early 20's, but it was all low-key stuff.
I can't say I've ever enountered a seriously predatory man. All the men I know now are fine, decent guys.
I still don't want to get naked in their presence, and they would steer clear of women's private spaces.
I'm not even afraid or rape or assault.
I just think that nakedness is a private matter. Exposing your body has always been a method of humiliating people. Your naked body is something extremely intimate.
So -- NO. Not even with nice men.

But really? My gym has a completely communal changing area in which women are all nude, most of them without making any attempt to do any wriggling around under a towel (which is fine/great/good to see people not being body conscious).

I cannot imagine what introducing an intact male into that scenario would do but I am absolutely sure that every single woman would change their behaviour. Every one. Even if it was by ostentatiously refusing to acknowledge that anything had changed. It is absolutely inconceivable to me that any female would not be discomfitted by it.

Yes -- this is in my aquatics class. Mostly older women, all getting in and out of swimsuits. Just the idea of a be-penised person in there is mind blowing. We'd probably go and never come back.

so I'm thankful that our local facilities have individual cubicles.

I'm glad you're taking in what PPs are saying mummyduckduck - but I wouldn't be so quick to breathe a sigh of relief. I've spoken on here before about my experience, mixed cubicles are still unsafe spaces for women. I had a man intensly watch me whilst I swam, then get out of the pool at the same time and use the showers I was using (there's at least 3 to choose from) follow me to a cubicle next to mine (I deliberately choose a one far away from the showers to try to loose him) in a deserted changing village who then proceeded to slowly push his bag/clothes under my side - was there a camera/phone hidden in it? Was it a diversion so he could film/watch me over the top? Who knows but I noped the fuck out of there before chancing bumping into him in the dark empty car park. And there's nothing stopping men placing cameras in mixed cubicles where at least if a man was seen in the women's changing rooms he'd be noticed and hopefully challenged. And the swimming pool I use have really switched on life guards who regularly are in and out of the changing village - it was a rarity they weren't about that day. There's loads of recorded cases of men doing this in changing room cubicles in shops (look up about Target making their changing rooms mixed sex and the surge in reports of voyeurism in their cubicles) and leisure centres.

The other thing to bear in mind mummyduck, is that you may be fine with all these things now but if you become a victim of rape then you may suffer from PTSD for many years. Will you still be happy to have a male be in toilets and chaging rooms with you? Or if you get dementia and need to receive intimate care, will you be happy having a male autogenophile doing that? Because soon you may not be ALLOWED to have a a choice of saying, "I'd prefer a female please".

There needs to be enough room for everyone. How to make this happen, how to make everyone feel safe and comfortable, is a real problem. Not being helped at all by the way this whole debate is being manipulated (almost entirely) by people who have no wish to help or support either feminists or trans women.

Ask yourself which group really benefits from trans people and feminists being pitted against each other so intensely...