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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya lost - can it be true?

729 replies

OhHolyJesus · 18/12/2019 19:38

I'm not saying it is true - Twitter isn't known for being wedded to truth...anyone able to shed light? I thought the verdict wasn't due for a while...

twitter.com/boysvswomen/status/1207379435684585474

OP posts:
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7
RealityNotEssentialism · 21/12/2019 14:06

SpeedyMe any info you can give us on CQ? Seemed like a misogynistic prick on twitter but idk what they’re like in real life.

MoleSmokes · 21/12/2019 14:55

Very relevant comment on this article in The Times, re the legal position on GRCs and how the GRA should not affect freedom of speech:

"JK Rowling accused of transphobia after backing Maya Forstater"
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/harry-potter-author-jk-rowling-accused-of-transphobia-after-backing-maya-forstater-vh6r85wtv?shareToken=05575242d831a0293c25d0160b3878ef

"The judge in this case doesn't seem to know that although the Gender Recognition Act changes in law the sex of a person who holds a gender recognition certificate, it does not require anybody to believe that that person's sex has been changed.

When the Gender Recognition Bill went through the House of Lords the Minister in charge (Lord Filkin) said:

"The noble Baroness also asked whether people who refuse to call a gender-changed man by the changed gender would be open to action. No, they would not, unless they had information about the person's gender history in an official capacity and they disclosed it otherwise than is allowed for by Clause 21". [Hansard, Lords, 29/01/04 col 411]"

Datun · 21/12/2019 15:13

MoleSmokes

That's very interesting. It does seem eminently sensible, of course.

After all, how exploitable is it to force people to say lies? It's crazy.

If anyone is on Twitter, could they let Maya know about that comment.

Thelnebriati · 21/12/2019 15:32

The link is here;

"The noble Baroness also asked whether people who refuse to call a gender-changed man by the changed gender would be open to action. No, they would not, unless they had information about the person's gender history in an official capacity and they disclosed it otherwise than is allowed for by Clause 21". [Hansard, Lords, 29/01/04 col 411]"

publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200304/ldhansrd/vo040129/text/40129-24.htm

ArranUpsideDown · 21/12/2019 15:38

@LadyPrincesexual aka Jane Clare Jones is writing a multi-part response to the judgment and she quotes the "noble Baroness":

janeclarejones.com/2019/12/21/bad-judgement-part-1/

theflushedzebra · 21/12/2019 15:48

So once again, the TRAs have misrepresented the law. We can't be compelled - in the words of our lawmakers, so surely shouldn't be deletable on Mumsnet - we can't be compelled "to call a gender-changed man by the changed gender".

Thelnebriati · 21/12/2019 16:08

To be fair that was the discussion before the bill was passed, someone needs to go through the GRA as it was passed and see what it says.
No one has done this because we all assumed the legislation would be reasonable, and compelled speech is not reasonable.

In any case don't see how compelled speech can work, unless you take it on a case by case basis. There are people with autism, dementia, and learning difficulties, there are people who have English as a second language or who may be unfamiliar with the law.

theflushedzebra · 21/12/2019 16:55

True, inebriati - I wouldn't be too impressed if they said that on record, and then brought in a law saying something different Hmm

Thelnebriati · 21/12/2019 17:16

I had a look at the GRA and there's nothing that compels a person to use any pronouns.

Ironically, section 22 4 C (Prohibition on disclosure of information) doesn't apply if you don't know or believe a person has a GRC.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/22

2BthatUnnoticed · 21/12/2019 19:20

It’s truly awful but Trump is going to win again, because the Dems are making the sane mistakes that Labour did.

Mayo the judge made some egregious comments that you would create “a hostile environment”, by not using they/ them for that Scottish person. Ridiculous.

I’ll donate for your appeal.

2BthatUnnoticed · 21/12/2019 19:26

*same... (the mistakes definitely are not “sane”!)

ThePurported · 21/12/2019 19:38

@LadyPrincesexual aka Jane Clare Jones is writing a multi-part response to the judgment and she quotes the "noble Baroness"
Placemarking, look forward to reading that!

MoleSmokes · 21/12/2019 19:54

From memory, the GRA only prohibits sharing the information that someone has a GRC if that information has been gained in an official capacity, which TRAs have routinely spun as it being against the law to ask if someone has a GRC.

It sounds very similar to the duty of patient confidentiality in the NHS which was explained to me with the following examples (although others might have been given a different interpretations):

Example: You are on the business of your NHS employer (any job, clinical or non-clinical) and walking down a hospital corridor you see someone in the distance who you recognise as a neighbour. You do not know the reason for him being there but the safest course of action is to assume that he is there as a patient and that you therefore owe him a duty of confidentiality. If you bump into his wife in the street it would be a breach of confidentiality if you volunteered, or confirmed when questioned, that you saw him on hospital premises.

However, if you were a visitor or patient yourself and saw your neighbour on the hospital corridor then you owe him no duty of confidentiality.

The first case would be equivalent to the confidentiality required under the GRA if you gained information about a GRC in an official capacity. In that case, the GRA would require you to refrain from referring to a "GRC woman" as a man (as per Lord Filkin) in order not to disclose your knowledge that they have a GRC. Nothing to do with "courtesy" or "avoiding causing offence" and everything to do with confidentiality.

The second case would be equivalent to, for example, seeing a selfie that someone had uploaded publicly on Twitter in which they are proudly brandishing their freshly-minted GRC. (As if that would ever happen! Hmm )

Everyone involved with the GRA imagined, or at least portrayed, transsexuals as shy, retiring creatures doing their utmost to be perceived as the opposite sex. Not as bearded bullies bragging publicly about their spanking-new protected status as gender-reassigned, legal-fiction females.

Whatever, the fact is that if knowledge of a GRC is not gained in an "official capacity" then there is no legal requirement under the GRA to avoid "misgendering" of any sort.

The GRA and GRCs refer to male and female, those "nonexistent" biological sexes according to Judge Tayler. If someone does not have a GRC then they are not covered by the GRC-related confidentiality requirements of the GRA. They are only protected by the Equality Act if they have a GRC or are intending to get one and "non-binary" is not an option.

So, I do not understand why the judge considered Gregor "non-binary" Murray and his They/Them pronoun preferences to be in any way relevant to Maya's case.

More relevant, I would have thought, is the fact that "being trans" is now a badge of pride and not something that most people seek to keep confidential. Also that at least some people with GRCs are publicly acknowledging their biological sex and asking that others do so.

The whole ruling is just . . . bizarre . . . like reading something out of Discworld!

DodoPatrol · 21/12/2019 20:07

Douglas Adams, surely:
' "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing."
"Oh," says man, "but the Babel fish is a dead give-away, isn't it? It proves You exist, and so therefore You don't."
"Oh, I hadn't thought of that," says God, who promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Ah, that was easy," says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.
Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys.'

MoleSmokes · 21/12/2019 20:11

Perfect DodoPatrol !!! Grin

OldCrone · 21/12/2019 20:45

Everyone involved with the GRA imagined, or at least portrayed, transsexuals as shy, retiring creatures doing their utmost to be perceived as the opposite sex. Not as bearded bullies bragging publicly about their spanking-new protected status as gender-reassigned, legal-fiction females.

And the GRA was brought in so that fully transitioned transsexuals, who had done everything possible to make their bodies resemble that of the opposite sex, could get married to someone of the same sex. At the time, this was viewed as more acceptable (for the tiny number of people for whom it was intended) than allowing same sex marriage.

Now that anyone can marry anyone else, whether of the same or opposite sex, it's being suggested that GRCs should be available to anyone on demand. So that men, with no body modification whatsoever, can be legally recognised as women. Why would they need to do this? What is the GRA actually for, now that we have same sex marriage?

ChattyLion · 21/12/2019 21:34

Exactly. GRA is based on sexist tropes, is naively written, is outdated now in terms of dealing with legal inequality around marriage or pension age, it’s not necessary for getting any other documents like a passport or driving licence issued in the opposite sex.. so apart from a lot of lovely validation what does it offer? What is it for?

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 21/12/2019 22:26

Repealing Grin

AutumnRose1 · 21/12/2019 23:06

If you need a laugh, elleandback on Twitter is singing Xmas songs that are...very good.

RealityNotEssentialism · 22/12/2019 07:20

Wow Maya’s crowdfunder is now at nearly 100k. Shows how many people genuinely care about this issue.

SpeedyMe · 22/12/2019 07:47

RealityNot It doesn’t feel right to talk about CQ on social media, but suffice to say that while I was (and am) deeply shocked it was them, from everything I know of them it makes complete sense that they would end up being CQ and also that they would end up being the witness in this court case.

motorcyclenumptiness · 22/12/2019 07:56

that was the discussion before the bill was passed
It's indicative of parliament's intent, which is relevant to statutory interpretation (purposive approach). (Sorry, posting in a hurry!)

BessyK · 22/12/2019 08:48

Benjamin A Boyce and Sasha Ayad discussing Maya's case.

Thelnebriati · 22/12/2019 08:54

Its clear from the discussion that there was an assumption made about what the legislation would mean. It was assumed that a woman could never be prosecuted for stating that humans cannot change sex, so it was never written into any legislation that you cannot discriminate against someone for stating sex is a material fact that cannot be altered.
Neither the GRA or the Equality Act foresaw this would happen, it was considered so ridiculous they felt they didn't need to legislate for it.

merrymouse · 22/12/2019 09:10

It was assumed that a woman could never be prosecuted for stating that humans cannot change sex

The GRA and the Equality Act 2010 both give examples of situations where somebody can or should be treated as their birth sex (sport, inheritance). The legislation doesn't make sense if you don't accept that biological sex can't be changed.

Stonelaw tries to get around this by claiming that the exceptions just apply to people generally and that everything must be judged on a case by case basis, but that isn't what the legislation says.

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