Anna from Warwickshire are you here? You're awesome!

[Jenala]

I know there's lot of mention of this on other threads but I just want to say Anna, if you're here (I feel like you must be), bravo! Your questions were great and you spoke so smoothly. No hesitation or umms and arrs.

My heart was beating out of my chest just asking some gentle questions at some transgender training at work recently so I guess I'm not difficult to impress but still. Good job

Thank you Anna. Jo Swinson has no clue.

Jo Swinson was awful. And she conflated transwomen and black women. Again that racist trope ...

Black women are women; disabled women are women; transwomen are transwomen.

And here eye roll in response to Anna's question! So rude.

Whoop whoop Anna!

@Newuser123123, is it you?!

From Pencil's transcript, my bolding

''JS: ... if anybody - if anybody goes into a changing room and is acting in a way that is ... is in any way kind of predatory or - um ... er, you know, antisocial, then the ... the institution, the gym or whatever it is, [you know?] the swimming pool, you know, should - should be able to take action on that basis, but what has happened - what has happened ...

AiW: But it's a safeguard - it's a safeguard, isn't it Jo?

JS: But the ...

AiW: At the moment we have women's spaces that are safeguarded from men, don't we? And the ...

JS: But can I - can I ...

AiW: Yes, go on.

JS: I was just going to say ... so, like ... I - the way in which this - this debate plays out, you know, I heard from people who are - um - women who might be women who look more masculine, women who might dress in a particular way, who have found, over the last months and years, with the way that this debate has been playing out, that they have suddenly, in a way that they haven't before, been challenged just for being in the women's loos. You know? Just for, you know, washing their hands at the sink and been challenged. And so I think we get into very dangerous territory if we start assuming that people'' ...

I honestly think JS was referring to men here. The way she hesitates in saying 'people who are - um - women who might be women who look more masculine' who haven't been challenged before. She was making this point in the context of predatory behaviour and I think was trying to say that she knows of men who have been using the women's loos and they shouldn't be assumed to be predatory.

I think it it far more likely that her focus is on the poor vulnerable men than on women who are mistakenly challenged because they 'dress in a particular way'. Which, while not impossible, seems highly unlikely to me.

And I think her mangling of the language is important. It demonstrates, here we are, trying to work out what she meant. That's what happens when words no longer have meaning. It becomes impossible to have a debate.

I just listened to it and it’s absolutely fucking amazing,

Jo Swinson sounds like an absolute nob.

A woman is an adult human female Jo, no more, no less.

Shall we crowdfund Jo a dictionary?

If "masculine" looking women are being challenged more now maybe it's because people like Jo keep telling the public that lesbians are as dangerous to other women as men are.

Maybe these ‘masculine-looking women’ are, you know, men. That might explain it.

I’m curious to know if any visually GNC MNers (or acquaintances) of the XX sort have been challenged in this way. I’ve never witnessed it, heard anyone IRL talk about it, or seen it mentioned on here.

My tall, crop-haired daughter has been briefly taken to be a boy or mistaken for her brother sometimes by me but the key word here is 'briefly'. A second look is all it takes.

I listened again. It makes me want to rewatch The Thick of It.

It's happened to a friend of mine a few times because she's unusually tall. All it takes is for her to turn around and say something for things to get cleared up. Humans are quite good at telling sex, no matter how many ego stroking lies some would like to force us to tell about that.

There were some incredibly butch women at DJ Lippy’s recent women only disco.

Moving and speaking made their femaleness obvious though.

DH has been mistaken for a woman at a glance because he has "pretty" features and used to have very long hair. Again, doesn't take more than a second or two for people to figure things out.

I listened again. It makes me want to rewatch The Thick of It. Yes, she was definitely Nicola Murray.

My little boy was mistaken for a girl for years simply because he has lovely blonde hair! Stopped once he grew to over six feet tall though.

In hindsight I’m surprised he’s not dead from all the literal violence.

There are currently over 250 comments on the video clip of this question on twitter.

The other video clips all have 20 or fewer comments, even the Brexit one.

Has your son considered reporting it as a hate crime, DuMond? Better do it in Yorkshire if he's going to as the force there seem to be very keen to help (just not with actual crimes).

Jo Swinson is the opposite of eloquent

She could not give a straight answer to any of Anna's questions.

It is because her argument does not hold up.

She could not even answer the simple question: What is a woman

I have nothing but contempt for JS, a d the way she is out to destroy womens' rights and even targets Lesbians (why?! What have lesbians ever done to her?! There is not a widespread societal issue with violent lesbians!)

The way in which people supportive of self ID keep trying to un-woman both lesbians and black women is making them look like the bigots that they accuse others of being. How has our political discourse reached the point where this is what passes for progressive speech?

Speaking I really don't think she was trying to say "men" with this bit.

Pretty certain what she was actually trying to say was more like "butch lesbians" but she was worried about sounding homophobic if she put it that bluntly. Another example of using what seems to be a fairly commonly-used myth (at least, I've only heard of maybe one case of this happening ever, and I wasn't even 100% convinced by that one) that if we're allowed to challenge people entering toilets based on thinking they look like the opposite sex, this would lead to an epidemic of butch lesbians and other - I think what Jo was probably thinking here but also didn't want to say, was "actual women" - being hassled or attacked. So to avoid this hypothetical scenario, we shouldn't challenge the 6-footer with the bad wig and adam's apple either

I’m not sure I follow her arguments about not wanting a society where ID is checked at the door. If your (self) ID is what makes you a woman, then the ONLY way we can have segregated spaces is by checking ID?

How else would a women’s shelter know that Danielle Muscato is a woman?

.

😬

Pretty certain what she was actually trying to say was more like "butch lesbians" but she was worried about sounding homophobic

Pretty sure the "Swinson sounding homophobic" train has long since left the station at this point! Even Boris probably wouldn't start banging on about lesbians being a danger in DV shelters.

How else would a women’s shelter know that Danielle Muscato is a woman?

That's easy. Surely anyone can tell that Danielle is a lady?

The women who could potentially be 'at risk' are the ones who have detransitioned after being on testosterone and have low, male sounding voices. I do feel for them.

Any woman who looks androgynous or GNC always sounds like a woman. Dove Rain describes this but she sounds female.

There's no room for aggression on either side and it should be called out but we wouldn't be in this position if males accepted that they need to use the male loos and also if all men tackled the issue of male violence. Why the duck is it always up to the women?