Lush has fallen

[WomanBornNotWorn]

One more shop to walk past

m.facebook.com/events/1490182737818126?acontext=%7B%22ref%22%3A%223%22%2C%22action_history%22%3A%22null%22%7D&aref=3

@KatvonHostileExtremist

OK. What's your point?

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

male trans people will have spent their entire childhood being perceived as male by others, and thus having a male experience

You seem very certain of that, for someone who has never experienced being trans.

You realize that you're contradicting your own point, right?

Eh? If transwomen don't grow up being perceived as male and experiencing all that goes with it, why do they feel such distress and need to transition? I thought the point was that society perceives transwomen who suffer from gender dysphoria as male but they strongly feel not-male.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn
No, but feel free to enlighten me.

@DickKerrLadies
Because of dysphoria. I wouldn't have thought that the idea of a woman being unhappy with her body would be that astounding.

I wrote quite a lot and I'm having trouble keeping track of who's arguing which point or even what point they're making, so if anyone wants me to respond it'd be helpful if you could be super clear. Bear in mind that I disagree with you, so a lot of the internalised assumptions you have won't apply (I have my own set of internalised assumptions which are different).

Of course, if you don't want me to reply then fire ahead, I don't need to understand you if you don't want me to.

I realise this may be hard for you to grasp, but other people can't actually read your mind (or anyone else's). Even if you have magic gender feelings in your head, that's not what other people see - they just see a male child, or a female child, and respond according to their culture's ideas about how one treats that child based on their sex. If for example a male child is punished for wanting to wear dresses, that's male socialization (a female child wouldn't be punished).

@TheProdigalKittensReturn
So if a trans kid is accepted rather than punished by their parents, then they are the gender they identify with, but otherwise not? I'm not sure you're going to convince me of that one.

They fell a long time ago! Haven't shopped there in ages as a result.

Also, I'm aware that we can't read each other's minds. That's why we use communication. And why it's super important to listen to people you love (or like, or just respect) when they tell you who they are.

And it's equally important to understand that children can be hugely influenced by their friends and that not all influences are benign.

I'm surprised you're still posting on this thread after you posted that pack of lies yesterday @SmallCalpolFiend. Surely you don't expect anyone to take you seriously now?

Because of dysphoria. I wouldn't have thought that the idea of a woman being unhappy with her body would be that astounding.

That idea isn't astounding at all. Women have more cosmetic surgery than men. Our feelings about our body are influenced by society though, and how we are perceived as members of a particular sex. And humans are pretty good at telling a person's sex.

So, how can a person who suffers dysphoria due to how society perceives them not have been perceived by society as the sex they are?

So if a trans kid is accepted rather than punished by their parents, then they are the gender they identify with, but otherwise not? I'm not sure you're going to convince me of that one.

To be clear, you think that a male child wanting to wear dresses means they have a "gender" that's not male? So men or boys who want to wear dresses don't exist? I mean, I know Kurt Cobain and David Bowie are dead, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't the dress wearing that killed them.

This is exactly why people here are pushing back against genderism. This is regressive, sexist nonsense. It's not that you're too radical, the problem is that you're not nearly radical enough.

Socialization into gender roles is a bad thing, for everyone. It crushes individuality and forces people into boxes that are a poor fit for almost everyone. The extent to which the box chafes varies, but there's almost nobody who fits their gender role perfectly. The solution isn't more gender, it's letting children have whatever interests and preferences they have and eliminating the idea that boys shouldn't like that/girls shouldn't like that.

I'm not sure you're going to convince me of that one.

I'm not sure what you think she's trying to convince you of. Are you confused about the difference between sex and gender identity?

How can "a man" know what it feels like to be a woman? How can you?

Because she's female. And that's all the criteria needed. Unlike a male person.

@SmallCalpolFiend It's so utterly utterly disrespectful to someone to say "how can you know you are female?" How are you a grown adult and ask that question? It's literally what you are. Being a woman isn't a costume, a feeling or a membership to a club, it's something that you are. It's like asking someone "how do you know you are human?"

Has Lush sent the bat(shit) signal up?

There's no such thing as 'feeling like a woman'. Being a woman is a biological reality whether one's female reproductive system is complete (e.g. after hysterectomy), or malfunctioning.

I honestly love threads like this. There's nothing better in terms of bringing newbies up to speed on the issues than seeing gender theory in full reality denying, harmful stereotype reinforcing flow.

"people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth"

And this is Stonewall's definition of gender: "Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined"

So the implication there is that anyone who doesn't happily accept the sex-role stereotypes associated with their sex is trans. Women who aren't SAHMs. Men who do childcare. Lesbians. Gay men. All the suffragettes. Feminists. Men who were part of the New Romantics back in the 80s.

If this is sounding a bit ridiculous that's because the whole concept of gender is bloody stupid.

What "gender" do we think Adam Ant is? Is "eyeliner daubed highwayman" a gender?

We were watching the human league old videos - when men work lippy and didn’t have a crisis...

If people from Lush are watching this thread then I want them to address the issue with allowing female employees to be sexually harassed as a part of their job.

'So how can womanhood be the sole right of people with those physical features? It can't.'

Womanhood is a 'right' that needs to be afforded to male people if they want it.

That is a really interesting comment. Womanhood as a right.

Wow, I only stepped away an hour - I might not have the time to address everything so bear with, I'm just one person...

@DickKerrLadies
So, how can a person who suffers dysphoria due to how society perceives them not have been perceived by society as the sex they are?
Because people don't usually perceive your genetalia unless your specifically showing it to them. And people can be good at hiding features of themselves that they don't want others to see.

And humans are pretty good at telling a person's sex
Actually, no... humans are pretty good at deciding who fits the standard ideals of what "masculine" and "feminine" should be, but I thought we were wanting to reject that, no? I know quite a few women who have been repeatedly mistaken for men - sometimes agressively so - but that doesn't make them men.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn
To be clear, you think that a male child wanting to wear dresses means they have a "gender" that's not male?
Wow, that would be a real "gotcha" if I'd said that, wouldn't it? No. Boys can wear dresses. What I was doing, was ridiculing your argument (awks! sorry...) that if a kid is punished for wearing dresses that that makes them male. Apologies if that wasn't the point you were making.

@MrsJamin
It's so utterly utterly disrespectful to someone to say "how can you know you are female?" How are you a grown adult and ask that question? It's literally what you are. Being a woman isn't a costume, a feeling or a membership to a club, it's something that you are. It's like asking someone "how do you know you are human?"

100% completely agree. So why do you do it to trans people?

that if a kid is punished for wearing dresses that that makes them male.

Nope, they're punished because they're male. What makes them male is having been born with a y chromosome and a penis. Do try to keep up.

Actually, no

Actually, yes! The fact that this hurts your feelings doesn't make it untrue.

I know quite a few women who have been repeatedly mistaken for men

Given how you're defining "women" this statement is quite literally meaningless. Or, wait, do you actually know what a woman is when it's convenient?

"....the sex they were assigned at birth."

So I've been through every single episode of Call The Midwife, and I can confirm that This Never Happens.