Lush has fallen

[WomanBornNotWorn]

One more shop to walk past

m.facebook.com/events/1490182737818126?acontext=%7B%22ref%22%3A%223%22%2C%22action_history%22%3A%22null%22%7D&aref=3

When was their woman’s rights or promo against child abuse?

Faz I also want to know what the untruths are. And I hope you were allowed to wear more than an apron?

I wonder if women asked about the truths?

I'm just pondering the rightness of all the fanjos always already knowing that Lush and its products are the enemy and rebelling - communicating with us the only way they can, by becoming extremely irritable.

Truly the female body is a fabulous mystical thing. and the vagina a source of great wonder and marvel.

Whilst we are waiting for the untruths let's have some links to trans media watch and their great leader Helen Belcher.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238618-Trans-Media-Watch-has-written-to-parliament-saying-trans-identified-male-can-be-considered-as-hate-speech-and-that-Mumsnet-users-referring-to-penises-are-being-transphobic

www.pressgazette.co.uk/times-withdraws-from-comment-awards-event-over-treatment-of-columnists-janice-turner-melanie-phillips/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3569148-Vindication-for-Janice-Turner-IPSO-complaint-result

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3397127-Stephen-Whittle-Press-for-Change-irresponsible-use-of-likely-suicides-follows-Helen-Belchers-Trans-Media-Watch

It's the particular dislike for Janice Turner that's interesting. I wonder why? 🤔🤔🤔

There are countless reactions from mostly the Times and Daily Mail and very easy to look up. I didn't wear the apron as I am not a member of staff, just a friendly face offering my knowledge and experience of being transgender. Which as I said was all positively received. Get to know some of us and have a calm and sensible chat and maybe some of your fears would be put at ease.

Noone is scared of people - it’s the loss of rights and woman only spaces that scares women.

And to choose World AIDs day was a bit of an odd one wasn’t it?

Sorry for the late reply @puds11. You asked me:

Can I ask more about your view on people not being able to be born into the wrong body? This is one of the terms I hear a lot as to why trans people undergo transition.

I am a scientist, and I therefore understand that we are a sexually diamorphic species, i.e. there are two sexes, female XX and male XY.

Women know they are female because they have a vagina and breasts. They do not "feel" female due to liking pink, enjoying shopping, being good at ballet, or preferring to have long hair. These are gender stereotypes. Yes, many women have a preference for some or all of these things, but that does not define their femaleness, and does not exclude women with short hair who play rugby and drink pints, from being female.

You will often hear accounts of transwomen (born male) saying that they "always knew they were female", because they enjoyed wearing dresses as a child, and preferred "girls' toys". This does not make them female. This makes them a male who prefers things more traditionally associated with females due to (outdated) gender stereotyping.

What makes you feel like a woman? For me, it is the fact that I look down and see a female body. And also that society treats me like a woman - sometimes male strangers insist "Ladies first", I have been discriminated against at work for being female, I get judged on my looks far more than men do, I am careful where I walk alone late at night to try to avoid sexual assault by a man. Other than that, I am a bit of a mixture between male and female stereotypes. I wear skirts some days, and trousers other days. I have had short and long hair styles in the past. I love science, but also baking. I hate the colour pink. I don't enjoy clothes shopping.

How can a man say that he feels like a woman in his head? He has no idea what it feels like to be a woman. He does not have a female body (has never experienced a period, has never had his breasts stared at by men), and he has no lived experience of being a woman (has not had to worry about his safety in a car park at night, has not faced discrimination at work due to being female, etc). Yes, perhaps he enjoys wearing a skirt, high heels, and make-up, but identifying with sexual stereotypes does not mean that you have a "female" brain.

I fully believe that SOME people who identify as transgender, are genuinely distressed by their body, but that does not mean their body is wrong. It means they have a psychological disorder. This may be caused/exacerbated by previous sexual abuse, autistic spectrum disorder, feelings of being homosexual and fear about whether family/society will accept them, or other mental health issues such as depression.

Anorexics have genuine dysphoria about their bodies, but we do not encourage them to lose further weight. We try to explore the psychological issues that are leading them to think they need to lose weight.

There is no scientific proof that someone can be "born into the wrong body". I think genuine gender dysphoria must be awful, and I think that those individuals deserve our help and support, especially children and young people. But that support should be counselling, CBT, and other psychological therapy that helps them to feel more comfortable with their bodies.

I hope I have managed to explain this well. It's been a busy old day, and I'm very tired!

Oh, and you mentioned the recent "rapist in prison" story... unfortunately that is not the only one. Ever heard of Karen White?

amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15752381224289&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fuk-news%2F2018%2Foct%2F11%2Ftransgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

Great post cabbage

💪

Well I've known transgender people since university, so around 20 odd years. Just like anyone else, some are okay, some are not.

I would imagine that's the case for most people on this board.

That was before the new crazy wave of bullshit, that told us humans can literally change their sex (not gender- sex) and all female spaces should therefore be open to male bodied people. Sport should too.

Meanwhile you've attempted every route under the sun to shut women up.

Come on then, where's the untruth?

Thanks littl - means a lot coming from a well-respected poster like yourself.

And their staff are way over aggressive and stuff stinks - dyes your bath and once even dyed DS blue. Don’t get me started on the glitter in your...

I know you can't and wouldn't post them here for obvious reasons but I hope you took photos of your Smurf son before the dye washed off!

Also, that thing where people lurk, not contributing but ever on the lookout for confused newbies who they can redirect to a different, less prone to critical thinking site is a bit creepy. Reminds me of the combination of love bombing and don't talk to outsiders they're dangerous that cults do.

I loathe lush and their woke politics and the way they treat their staff!
Great post @littlecabbage

Thank you again @littlecabbage, an excellent explanation.

Yeah Lush have always hated women (unless they have a penis, of course) look at that misogynistic, rape culture publicity stunt where stores encouraged random men to kiss Lush staff, without giving a shiny shite about consent or boundaries. Just awful.

That's one of the neatest most user-friendly explanations I've ever read cabbage. It should be more-widely circulated. If you can write that when you're tired....

So again I wonder aloud - why on AIDS day?

I think - it’s not a ‘glam’ issue is it? Many of us are old enough to remember it as the death sentence, known people who had the diagnosis back in those days, watched people in real life and in the media fade away and die.

It’s real - it is on the rise again - but it’s grim, scary and horrible. Maybe the Harry Potter generation folx these days can’t handle grim reality. They want strictly come dancing and drag race. They don’t even want to see the reality of the horses they back.

There are many areas in which the documented HIV+ rate among trans people is much, much higher than the population average. So that could be the reason? I don't think Lush would want to talk about the reason why though (hint - it's prostitution) because that's a circle that's impossible to square if you subscribe to the full set of woke beliefs.

It it’s real, you can’t just stick a rainbow on it and it goes away. I saw one ribbon yesterday - ONE! And that was my sister...

@littlecabbage

I find it interesting to hear that people "know" they are female because they have a vagina and breasts, though it seems a little odd to me. I knew that I was a girl long before I developed breasts, before I even understood what a uterus or a vagina was, let alone that I had them. How did I know? I don't know. I guess because that's what I'd been told.

You will often hear of trans women referring to preferring dresses and "girls' toys" as children, but did you ever stop to think why? How often have you been made to justify your sense of being female? How would you go about doing that, if you didn't have the physical features to back you up? (I've never seen discussions of how trans men respond to this question. Do they get asked?)

I also think that if I were to have the awful misfortune to require a double mastectomy and a hysterectomy, I would still be a woman, and I'm guessing that no-one here would disagree with that. So how can womanhood be the sole right of people with those physical features? It can't.

The awkward fact is that there is no single physiological definition of "woman" which would encompass all women, not even "having two X chromosomes". And in the absence of that physiological definition, on what grounds can we exclude trans women?

Another awkward fact is that there is no universal experience of being a woman. Some women will have their breasts stared at, others will not. Some women have periods, others do not. Some women never have children (through choice or circumstance), some grow them in their own bodies, some use surrogacy, some adopt. Some like clothes shopping. Some do science.

How can "a man" know what it feels like to be a woman? How can you? You only know your own experience. You don't know mine, or anyone else's. You were told as a child that you were female, and accepted it. You never experienced gender dysphoria, so why on earth would you question it?

You talk about looking down to see a female body, being discriminated against at work, judged on your looks, and being mindful of sexual assault - these are all experienced by trans women too. How you are treated in the world has absolutely nothing to do with what chromosomes you have, because, crucially, nobody knows that. How you are treated by society is down to how you are perceived by it, and if you are perceived as female then you will have a female experience.

And please, can we stop with the anorexia comparisons. We don't encourage anorexia because it will very literally kill you. A trans person can change their body to reflect what makes them comfortable, and go on to lead a full, happy and healthy life. They are not comparable.

I save this quote for moments just like this.

😘

"Sex is biological and 99.98 percent of humans are either straight up male or female with no ambiguities. It's determined at conception and fertilization, and is observable in every cell, every system, all our hormones, every organ, and in our entire biology. Sex is not assigned, it's observed as a physical, material, and biological fact. Ultimately it's all about the gametes. If you produce sperm you are male. If you produce ova you are female. No human was ever born without the haploid contribution of both male and female gametes.
And as regards intersex, this occurs in about 0.017 percent of humans and every case is a disorder of sexual development of either a male or a female. We have a ton of good data and the DSD categories are well understood genetically. These are the six biological karyotype sex disorders that do not result in immediate death to the fetus:
X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s )
XX – Most common form of female
XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
XY – Most common form of male
XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births
"If you are 46, XX, you are female. If you are 45, XO, you are still female, but with Turner syndrome. 47 XXX, 48XXXX and 49XXXXX, aren't a spectrum of femaleness, they are classified as female chromosomal disorders. If you are 46, XY, you are male. If you are 47, XXY, you are male, but with Kleinfelter syndrome. If you are 48, XXYY, you are male, but with XXYY syndrome. 48,XXXY, 49,XXXXY. All are still male. These aren't on a spectrum - they are categorized as male genetic disorders. They aren't considered intersex conditions, but a lot of trans activists like to claim they are.
If someone had trisonomy 21, we don't say they are on a human spectrum of any sort, we classify them as having Down syndrome.
Intersex conditions by themselves can exist in a spectrum, but only in relation to the severity of that specific condition. But even over that spectrum they have clearly defined categories. Androgen insensitivity syndrome is someone who is genetically male, but their reproductive organs don't masculinize. It has 3 categories of severity.
There is no spectrum gradient between male and male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. These are clearly defined categories. There is no spectrum gradient between female and androgen insensitivity syndrome. You are either in the category female or category male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. There is no spectrum gradient between having an intersex condition and not.
If you have all the typical indicators of your sex, you are that sex, you are in that category. If you are born with the number and type of sex chromosomes off from your external genitalia, with unmatching or mixed type of gonads, with ambiguous internal reproductive anatomy; and/or ambiguous external genitalia, then you are in the intersex category. There is NO spectrum gradient or overlap between being typical male and having an intersex condition.
Bottom line: Intersex is a specific set of individual genetic disorders of sexual development - not a third sex or a collection of different sexes.
Gender on the other hand is a set of trivial characteristics associated with the performance of masculine or feminine behaviors. These are entirely cultural constructs and are widely varied culture to culture.
Bottom line is there are two sexes, three orientations, and 7.6 billion genders. "

I think we are all entitled to believe anything we want as long as it doesn't impact adversely on other people.
What I don't think we are entitled to do is to force everyone else to share our belief, or to change their language to accommodate us.

Thanks littlecabbage.

How you are treated by society is down to how you are perceived by it, and if you are perceived as female then you will have a female experience.

And male trans people will have spent their entire childhood being perceived as male by others, and thus having a male experience. And the vast majority of them will still be perceived as male and treated as such by others even after fully transitioning.

Same in reverse for female trans people, though they tend to pass a bit better post transition, at least at a glance.

Even the arguments that are meant to convince us that genderists are right prove that they're totally, utterly wrong.