Dammit, just read the Plaid Cymru manifesto and now I have no-one to vote for

[Littlecloud19]

I'm in Wales and had been hoping I could vote Plaid Cymru, whose manifesto contains excellent statements and policies to support women.
But, like the other political parties, they don't actually know what a woman is, and have undermined all the positive steps they'd take with this:
"Plaid Cymru will support the reform of the Gender Recognition Act to
introduce a streamlined, de-medicalised process. We will support efforts to reform the Equality Act to include ‘gender identity’ as a protected characteristic and to remove the use of the terms ‘gender reassignment’ and ‘transsexual’ from the Act."
I'm afraid mine is going to be a spoiled ballot paper, with "Woman = Adult Human Female" written on it.

I’m saying I don’t have an issue with a trans person peacefully using that space if that’s where they feel comfortable

depending on the situation, I don’t necessarily either, but I recognise that other women have legitimate objections.

I suspect trans women historically used the women’s quietly and discreetly and no one noticed. This massive overreach by Stonewall etc to deny the importance (or even existence) of sex and to widen the definition of woman to anyone who says they feel like one has actually caused a backlash and lots of women who had no issue with quiet co-existence previously are horrified by proposals which effectively open up women’s spaces to anyone who says they want to use them.

I wrote to my MP, Ben Lake last year about the concerns I had about being able to self identify as a woman, and what that meant for women’s protection. I explained my concerns as an abuse survivor whose PTSD reacts to trans people based on their sex, not their pronouns. I wrote a lot of personal stuff in that email, and he didn’t even respond to it. It showed me exactly what he thinks of me and my pain. Not worth a second thought.

I’ve voted plaid for years and years as I love their green policies and general politics match mine identically. My purpose was never to persecute trans people, not at all, but I don’t think it’s wrong to provide third spaces rather than risk making women’s spaces open to predators (and I don’t mean trans people, I mean predators who will take advantage of changed rules to attack women).

I’m tired of people handing away my freedoms as though they mean nothing.

Are you unaware of the effects of testosterone on the female reproductive system?

Fully aware, it’s why egg or sperm freezing should be discussed before starting any hormonal treatment. I didn’t mention it because I generally assumed that those seeking treatment would be aware that eventual reassignment surgery would mean losing the ability to reproduce naturally anyway. Perhaps I did make too bold an assumption though, I didn’t consider those who may only wish to seek hormonal treatment.

But what about women who don't feel comfortable with a male in their space? Don't women matter to you?

I’m just telling you how I personally feel about it. I don’t speak for all women.

Do you think a door with a picture of a lady on it is going to stop a man hell bent on raping or assaulting someone?
If that were the case, why do sexual assaults against women increase in mixed sex toilets & changing rooms?
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html
One of many examples
www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/17657739.pervert-filmed-22-women-girls-getting-changed-darwen-leisure-centre/

Why would a man put a sign on a toilet door indicating that it was mixed sex if it didn't make it easier for him to access women in a vulnerable position?

Fully aware

And yet your reply was on a completely different issue.

Some excerpts from the Buck Angel article - these are some of the effects of testosterone on the female reproductive system:

After about 11 or 12 years of taking testosterone, I started getting cramps, mostly after orgasms. Sometimes they were like bad period cramps, and other times, they’d make me double over in pain for hours.

After about 15 years on testosterone, I felt a fever coming on one day after my workout, like I was getting the flu, and the next thing I knew I was passed out on the floor. My then-partner rushed me to the emergency room with a 101-degree fever and rising.

As it turned out, the testosterone had atrophied my reproductive system—a condition that could have been prevented by the use of estrogen cream. The atrophy fused my uterus and my cervix together, along with my ovaries and everything else, creating an infection that burst and became septic.

The Friday night people are about...

Why do you robots come on here and say we are all afraid of trans people attacking us your dumbing down the issue AGAIN

I know genuine transgender people I'm not bothered by them I'm bothered by people hijacking there struggle to make it easier to get there kicks and perversion sorted masterbaters in womens changing rooms the ones who upskirt swordstick person ones who carry knives ( with glitter) yaniv wax my balls the tampon fetish people raiding the bins those are just a few of the people I have issues sharing my space with

As it turned out, the testosterone had atrophied my reproductive system—a condition that could have been prevented by the use of estrogen cream

Oestrogen cream gets systemically absorbed so surely the application of it would mean an increased dose of testosterone would be needed to counteract its effects. Any endocrinologists out there want to satisfy my medical curiosity?

If they use a male space they risk being assaulted, why is this?

I’m basing it on an experience a patient told me about where a man threatened to kill her for using a gym changing room (this was before she had surgery, she now uses women’s spaces and hasn’t had any issues). I guess men could be less tolerant and more likely to be physically violent?

Thank you for answering.

This is one of the cruxes of the argument. Men are overwhelmingly more likely to be violent than women. That does not change because a man decides one day they are a women.

By saying trans women should share spaces with women, women are being placed at risk... a level of risk that is... apparently... unacceptable for a trans women to have to live with. Of course not all trans women are violent. But, as a class, male bodied people are.

And as for 3rd spaces? That’s what most GC people want. But the trans community on the whole don’t. They want complete acceptance of being ‘women’, no questions, concerns or fears are acceptable.

Yes, it always comes back to loos, doesn’t it?
For me, the big- and seemingly insurmountable issue are sport, prisons

I’m just telling you how I personally feel about it. I don’t speak for all women.

No, you don't.

But you said this earlier:

MN is just stoking the fire of anti-trans sentiment and anyone who expresses support for their rights to use the space they feel comfortable is labelled ‘not a feminist’ or ‘doesn’t give a shit about women’s safety’.

In this post you don't seem to recognise that some women disagree with you, and that those women have rights too. In this post you are not saying it's 'just your opinion', you're saying that you support the rights of transgender people to use whatever spaces they want over the right of women to object.

I don’t think that allowing people to use the space they feel comfortable with is wrong or dangerous.

But many of us here do think it is wrong and potentially dangerous. You don't speak for us. And since you understand that you don't speak for all women you must realise that if one single woman objects to what you propose, then it is unacceptable.

And as for 3rd spaces? That’s what most GC people want. But the trans community on the whole don’t. They want complete acceptance of being ‘women’, no questions, concerns or fears are acceptable.

My apologies, I should have said ‘a lot of the trans community’. Not ‘the trans community as a whole’.

To be fair I’ve gone further down this rabbit hole than I ever intended. I only clicked on the thread because I was torn between voting Labour and Plaid!!

JPharm- do you accept that there are women who have legitimate reasons for not wanting to share spaces with male bodies people?

Yes I accept that, It’s not how I personally feel but I accept what they are saying. I don’t know what the solution is though.

Oestrogen cream gets systemically absorbed so surely the application of it would mean an increased dose of testosterone would be needed to counteract its effects.

I'm not an expert on this, but that sounds reasonable. I think I have seen somewhere that if a woman takes testosterone for more than a couple of years she has to have a hysterectomy and oophorectomy because of the complications.

Unlike men, who can apparently take oestrogen for years and don't have to have any surgery - and of course over 90% don't, which is another reason for not wanting them in women's spaces.

For me, the big- and seemingly insurmountable issue are sport, prisons

Yes, but also things like medical treatment where a female is requested, rape crisis centres, refuges etc

I don’t think a transgender woman who has been treated by society as male all her life and risen through the ranks accordingly should be given plaudits as “the first female X” if they then transition as she simply hadn’t faced the hurdles that natal women do at every stage, which is the point of having such plaudits in the first place.

I think third spaces is a good compromise.

I don’t know what the solution is though.

Surely the solution is to segregate by sex and have 3rd spaces for those who don't want that for any reason. The answer isn't to let any male who feels 'uncomfortable' sharing with men to be allowed into the women's spaces, and make enormous numbers of women uncomfortable. Those women have nowhere else to go.

Third spaces it is then! Let’s all go to the pub.

It's not just about 3rd physical spaces, though (and I'd support those), it's also women and girls competing fairly in sport and being counted properly when it comes to e.g places on boards. Not being lumped in with the same category as XY individuals.

If someone is transitioning and looks female which space should they use? If they use a male space they risk being assaulted

It’s interesting you word it like this. What if they don’t look female?
Ime, people can nearly always tell the difference, it’s just out of politeness and niceness they pretend they can’t.
At the minute, there’s a small amount of protection, as men aren’t ‘meant’ to be there, so if you’re uncomfortable you can get them removed. (Obviously not all the time but you know what I mean)
it’s a small sliver of protection, but it’s there nonetheless, and self ID would remove that. Instead of being able to get them removed, you would be the bigot.

And unfortunately, the type of men who wants to get access to women’s spaces are exactly the sort you don’t want anywhere near women’s spaces.

I think some trans people don’t see the unintended consequences.
I think others do, and don’t care. They see it as acceptable collateral damage in order that they feel validated.

cliques Ben Lake didn’t reply to you ? That is pretty shabby. I have met him and he seemed nice, although I have no idea of his stance in gender. Might be worth contacting him again on the remote chance he didn’t see your email, and it was instead binned by a minion. He is not my MP, or I would be contacting him too.

I'm in Wales.
What is Plaid Cymru's 2019 manifesto, I' be really grateful if someone would link.Especially women and women's rights.

Been busy at work today, so no chance to just go an read it for myself.