Dammit, just read the Plaid Cymru manifesto and now I have no-one to vote for

[Littlecloud19]

I'm in Wales and had been hoping I could vote Plaid Cymru, whose manifesto contains excellent statements and policies to support women.
But, like the other political parties, they don't actually know what a woman is, and have undermined all the positive steps they'd take with this:
"Plaid Cymru will support the reform of the Gender Recognition Act to
introduce a streamlined, de-medicalised process. We will support efforts to reform the Equality Act to include ‘gender identity’ as a protected characteristic and to remove the use of the terms ‘gender reassignment’ and ‘transsexual’ from the Act."
I'm afraid mine is going to be a spoiled ballot paper, with "Woman = Adult Human Female" written on it.

I don’t think that allowing people to use the space they feel comfortable with is wrong or dangerous.

@JPharm I'm a woman who doesn't feel comfortable sharing spaces like changing rooms with men. Which space should I use?

If someone is transitioning and looks female which space should they use? If they use a male space they risk being assaulted

A man who 'looks female' risks being assaulted if he uses a male space. What has this got to do with women?

This is mumsnet, but we're not your mother. It's not up to women to solve male-on-male violence.

Drugs for gender reassignment are not lifestyle drugs, to suggest they are is pure medical ignorance.

Drugs for gender reassignment are not lifestyle drugs, to suggest they are is pure medical ignorance.

I missed who said they were. They do carry the risk of potentially causing very serious problems down the line, right? And not everyone who has been prescribed them has had extensive mental health support or screening.

And they can be lifestyle drugs. It's very easy to go on Twitter and within about 5 minutes find people who are taking them because they get a sexual kick out of them. Just because that's not every trans person doesn't mean to say it's not still a significant number.

Also 'medical ignorance?!'

Gender dysphoria and autogynephilia are woefully under-researched. The whole medical community is ignorant!

So how do we reconcile incompatible rights?

They do carry the risk of potentially causing very serious problems down the line, right?

There is no current evidence to support this hypothesis. There are known risks associated with any hormone treatment. These drugs are already licensed for other indications and have been on the market for a long time without any serious safety concerns.

Not lifestyle drugs? A man consuming hormones because he wants a pair of breasts?

OK then.

“ These drugs are already licensed for other indications and have been on the market for a long time without any serious safety concerns.”

Any data on long term use?

@Jpharm There's a good solid evidence base for vaccinations and of course pharmaceutical companies want to flog their drugs, that's what they do.
The gallop towards drug treatments to treat gender dysphoria is woefully lacking such scrutiny.
Emily Maitliss's interview at the end of this Newsnight film shows how treatments are going ahead without proper peer-reviewed research.

@JPharm- something I don’t understand and you do is why this is the only dysphoria which is automatically treated by affirmation. Is it posdible to explain that to me? Please use little words!

If they use a male space they risk being assaulted

Why is this, @JPharm?

Not sure if you missed this question first time round so just popping it here again..:

Any data on long term use?

Not on the specific regimes used for gender reassignment but testosterone monotherapy has been used for decades in treating men with deficiency disorders, there is thought to be a slightly increased risk of cardiovascular incident.

Oestrogen therapies have also been used for decades in women (contraception, HRT), the main risks are: slight increased risk of stroke, slightly elevated risk of thrombosis and a slightly increased risk of endometrial and breast cancer. No different from taking long term contraceptives or HRT.

These risks are known and can be monitored for. Regular blood pressure checks and cardiovascular risk screening should be considered.

Could you address the points about circular reasoning , JPharm? Why is it okay to expose women to higher risk but not okay to expose transwomen to the same risk?

@JPharm
You've said that males who present in a feminine way should use women's spaces because they might be attacked in the male ones. But if women are attacked, you say the law will deal with it. Wouldn't the law also deal with feminine men who are attacked by other men?

Why do you expect women to get involved in the problem of male-on-male violence by accepting feminine men into women's spaces? What has this problem to do with women?

Why should women make themselves uncomfortable in their own spaces in order to accommodate males who feel more comfortable in women's spaces? Do you believe that women should not have a right to female only spaces? Do women not also have a right to feel comfortable?

These risks are known and can be monitored for.

You're talking about risks for people taking same-sex hormones, not cross-sex hormones.

something I don’t understand and you do is why this is the only dysphoria which is automatically treated by affirmation

I’m not sure, this relates more to the psychological aspect of gender dysphoria. My specialty is in medicines and their side effects so I couldn’t give you an informed answer. I work near a private clinic that offers gender reassignment treatment so I have a few regular patients who present with private prescriptions for drug treatment.

If they use a male space they risk being assaulted, why is this?

I’m basing it on an experience a patient told me about where a man threatened to kill her for using a gym changing room (this was before she had surgery, she now uses women’s spaces and hasn’t had any issues). I guess men could be less tolerant and more likely to be physically violent?

testosterone monotherapy has been used for decades in treating men

But not transmen. Women aren’t just small men. It’s only now coming to light how inadequate research and data on drug trials is for women.

But sure, yeah, that’s just like anti vaxxers.

You're talking about risks for people taking same-sex hormones, not cross-sex hormones.

True. Early studies have shown though that it poses little risk for male to female transitioning and a possible increased risk of low bone density and cardiovascular events for female to male transitioning. A larger study is currently ongoing.

The advice is still to monitor for cardiovascular side effects.

I guess men could be less tolerant and more likely to be physically violent?

So why is your solution to make all women's spaces mixed sex?

So why is your solution to make all women's spaces mixed sex?

Could we not have a compromise such as third spaces or locked cubicles within shared ones? The family area I use in the swimming pool has locked cubicles for changing, gives people the privacy they need for everyone to share the space responsibly.

I’m basing it on an experience a patient told me about where a man threatened to kill her for using a gym changing room (this was before she had surgery, she now uses women’s spaces and hasn’t had any issues). I guess men could be less tolerant and more likely to be physically violent?

So you admit that men are more likely to be violent.

But this is what you say about women not wanting men in our spaces:

It happens anyway, we’d do better to put in a more robust legal process and legal aid for the victims of sexual assault so that we increase conviction rates and have them off the streets

I don’t think there is anything wrong with saying that sexual assault happens, it’s a huge problem, I have been a victim of it myself and never got justice. I feel that the best way to address it is to strengthen the legal process and improve the conviction rate so that the chance of being assaulted (in any space) is greatly reduced.

You suggest that the legal process should improve. But this also applies to feminine men being assaulted by other men in male spaces. And do you really think that by letting more men use women's spaces fewer women will be assaulted? If not, why would you suggest doing that?

So you admit that men are more likely to be violent.

Isn’t it statistically true? I’m not saying lets allow all men in for bants! I’m saying I don’t have an issue with a trans person peacefully using that space if that’s where they feel comfortable. Quite clearly I’m in the minority here though.

@JPharm
Are you unaware of the effects of testosterone on the female reproductive system?

bust.com/sex/195055-trans-man-gyneologist-advice-buck-angel.html

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3352661-Buck-Angel-a-story-of-the-dangers-of-trans-medication

I’m saying I don’t have an issue with a trans person peacefully using that space if that’s where they feel comfortable.

But what about women who don't feel comfortable with a male in their space? Don't women matter to you?