Dammit, just read the Plaid Cymru manifesto and now I have no-one to vote for

[Littlecloud19]

I'm in Wales and had been hoping I could vote Plaid Cymru, whose manifesto contains excellent statements and policies to support women.
But, like the other political parties, they don't actually know what a woman is, and have undermined all the positive steps they'd take with this:
"Plaid Cymru will support the reform of the Gender Recognition Act to
introduce a streamlined, de-medicalised process. We will support efforts to reform the Equality Act to include ‘gender identity’ as a protected characteristic and to remove the use of the terms ‘gender reassignment’ and ‘transsexual’ from the Act."
I'm afraid mine is going to be a spoiled ballot paper, with "Woman = Adult Human Female" written on it.

They aren’t saying anyone can use any space they want,

Effectively, they are.

I don’t mind sharing spaces at all, I use a family changing room at the swimming pool gender neutral toilets at work, it causes me no problems.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with saying that sexual assault happens, it’s a huge problem, I have been a victim of it myself and never got justice. I feel that the best way to address it is to strengthen the legal process and improve the conviction rate so that the chance of being assaulted (in any space) is greatly reduced.

MN is just stoking the fire of anti-trans sentiment and anyone who expresses support for their rights to use the space they feel comfortable is labelled ‘not a feminist’ or ‘doesn’t give a shit about women’s safety’.

Anyone can walk into a female only space, unless you want to put a lock that is activated by your genitals on the door it does very little to protect women!

It's also about the political and legal language. Trans lobby groups have made no bones about the fact they wish to remove the characteristic of sex from the EA2010.

It appears that ideally they would like gender identity to replace both sex and gender reassignment. This is the end goal.

Sex and gender reassignment at least have some basis in factual reality. Gender identity is based on individual feelings with no clear, meaningful definition and no concrete way of being measured. It's largely built on cultural based stereotypes of what men and women 'should be' many of these assumptions being regressive and sexist.

Like many women (and men) I don't believe in gender identity as an ideological concept and enshrining it into law will be very harmful to women in the short, medium and long term. Women are adult human females, we are of the female sex class and as such deserve words to accurately describe us and to protect us as a political class.

I wonder if this thread is being deliberately derailed from discussion of Plaid Cymru?

Also I wasn’t going to vote Plaid but I totally might now!

As I asked earlier, how exactly does a door with a picture on it stop someone who’s sole intention is to cause harm?

Exactly, I agree with you. Why can't transwomen who are biologically male use male changing rooms and other male spaces?

Arse arse and arse again. I was going to vote Plaid. I will talk to my local candidate about this.

Actually considering voting Tory now. That would be a first.

Many of us do mind sharing spaces though.
I'm also a (historic) sexual abuse survivor, and one of the lasting impacts is that I instinctively feel threatened when a man (even my DH) stands too close to me, especially if he's behind me. No amount of counselling has changed that, and believe me, I've tried.
I don't care if that man might be wearing a wig or a skirt, it will still set off the same reaction, particularly in a confined space like the queue for women's toilets.

My case went to court, my abuser was found not guilty, which of course doesn't mean he didn't do it, I (and his other victims who didn't feel up to coming forward) know the truth.

The trial itself and giving evidence was an horrendous ordeal. No matter how much we strengthen the criminal justice system, I don't want one single girl or woman to be put at more risk than they are now.

@SirVixofVixHall It's worth talking to your Plaid Cymru candidate, of course, but it's there in their manifesto. That's what they're committed to, and in the case of a hung parliament, it might have some weight.

I honestly can't see how it protects sex-based right.

*rights

JPharm in the past if a man was in the women's loos or changing rooms, he would be challenged and told to leave. It would be obvious that he was a threat, since no normal man would ever go into these spaces. Once men get the right to just come and go as they please, or there are only unisex facilities, it makes us vulnerable since any pervert/sex offender can just walk into spaces where women are especially vulnerable and we have no legal right to challenge them until it's too late!
Many women don't even like getting changed near other women, let alone men. So those women (and women who belong to certain religions) will end up being eradicated from public life, unable to use swimming pools etc.
This is not really about the tiny number of genuine transwoman - it's about men asserting their power of women.

I read on here that transwomen commit crimes at the same a rates as other biological males. Transition doesn't reduce their threat to women. Can you not see why that might be a problem?

JPharm "it happens anyway?! What the hell? Women and girls get raped anyway so why should we try to protect them?

That is disgusting.

If there's no point keeping men out of women's spaces because assaults happen anyway, why do trans women want to use women's spaces JPharm? They won't be any safer.

And this is the question that they can never answer.

littlecloud I’m sorry you went through that, and I’m sorry it about it has affected you. Well done for taking it trial, I didn’t have the courage.

I was assaulted in my own home by someone I knew, I think both our cases support the statistic that most women already know their potential assailant. I know our views differ but the vast majority of cases occur this way and I think that it would be a better use of political parties time to improve the legal route to securing a conviction, this means fewer dangerous men out there to worry about. You were let down by this system and I felt I couldn’t report as I automatically wouldn’t be believed.

What exactly do you want trans people to do though? If someone is transitioning and looks female which space should they use? If they use a male space they risk being assaulted, if they use a female one they risk being labelled an attacker.

I don’t think that allowing people to use the space they feel comfortable with is wrong or dangerous. To say men will use this as a loophole to assault people seems as silly to me as when people say ‘cannabis is a gateway drug to heroin’.

To whoever said they would vote Tory please know that you are not protecting women, their cuts to legal aid and lack of funding for the CPS has allowed many sexual predators to walk free.

@Jumblebee I was clumsy with my words, I didn’t mean it to sound that way, my comments are further explained in subsequent posts. Please don’t call me disgusting. There is room for debate without insults.

why do trans women want to use women's spaces JPharm? They won't be any safer.

Maybe because they don’t feel safe anywhere due to the levels of hate crimes against trans people. They may see it more as using the space they feel most comfortable in.

JPharm, currently my primary ages daughters are legally protected from being forced to view adult male genitalia in our local swimming pool female communal changing rooms and male adults are not allowed to view my daughters getting undressed.

Voyeurs, flashers etc will just need to sign a form and they will be able to do so legally.

You want them to lose these protections? What is WRONG with you???!!

Why is the safety, dignity and privacy of little girls so irrelevant.

Women aren't responsible for protecting them, at the risk of our own safety. Instead of bullying women into giving up what previous generations of women have fought for, the focus of society ought to be on eradicating male violence. But TRA like bullying women. See the problem?

Maybe because they don’t feel safe anywhere due to the levels of hate crimes against trans people. They may see it more as using the space they feel most comfortable in.

Crimes committed against women and girls statistically far outweigh crimes committed against males with a trans identity yet apparently we have no say in what makes us feel safe or comfortable.

I'm sorry JPharm but wanting to remove women's rights to single sex spaces IS disgusting.

What exactly do you want trans people to do though? If someone is transitioning and looks female which space should they use? If they use a male space they risk being assaulted

Is that true though? I can see it might be a risk in some cases, but I can't imagine it's true in most workplaces or gyms etc., especially with some publicity so that it's what people expect.

There is nothing wrong with me thank you very much, as usual the posts on MN have turned nasty and I doubt I’d get half this stuff said to my face if we were discussing this issue in real life.

I just really hate the anti-trans rhetoric on MN (that is being dressed up as a demise issue) and I just want people to possibly see it from a trans perspective, if one of your daughters wanted to transition would you not want them to be legally protected from discrimination and able to identify as they wished? That’s all Plaid are trying to do.

I do see people points about self identification and protection of women but I feel many people in here are getting up in arms about a problem that doesn’t exist in practical terms. You’ve probably shared a female changing space or toilet with a trans person and never even known about it, they wouldn’t have announced it.

There is a family changing space in my swimming pool, everyone uses it sensibility and no one flashes their genitals at kids.

I wonder whether the "you're scaremongering and making this up" posters would be prepared to say that to the faces of the women sexually assaulted in prison by Karen White while White was on remand for rape (a crime which under English law requires a penis)? Or the victims of convicted rapists Davina Ayrton or Lisa Hauxwell?

Because that's what you're campaigning for; the removal of human rights for female prisoners, among the most vulnerable group of women in society, with past histories of suffering child sexual abuse and domestic violence at rates far in excess of the general population.

That's what you're campaigning for. I think it's clearly barbaric. Bet you don't have the ovaries to own the full consequences of your batshit ideas though.

Sorry should have read ‘feminist issue’ why is there no edit button on MN?