Does MN have a problem with trans people? **MNHQ edited title as OP has apologised for 'accusatory' tone**

[tryandempathise]

Seem to be threads constantly on the issue of trans.

Why?

Is it because it conflicts with the idea of sex as a construct?

Is it an age thing?

There must be mums on here with trans kids - do you just stay out of it?

Why the obsession with the idea of being attacked by trans women? Is it not the modern equivalent of homophobic blokes all thinking gay men want to rape them?

I'm aware of how much you hate 'cis' but I use it in this context because differentiating between trans women and 'women' implies that the former are not women.

The former are male, in every cell of their body. What they "identify" as, ie their thoughts and feelings, does not magically change their DNA.
Being female is biological. You can say TWAW a million times, this does not change.

You can also say "the universe was created in six days" a million times, it does not make it come true.

To me it's like asking me if I identify as being the height I am - makes no difference how I feel about it, I'll be the same height regardless and other people will be able to see how tall I am.

Instead of flinging endless accusations around, Lemon, subject your own self to some scrutiny. I'll ask you again:

why are you posting in support of a bourgeois, male supremacist, hyper-capitalist, ultra-libertarian neo-religion with an agenda that includes the destruction of child safeguarding?

I'm aware of how much you hate 'cis' but I use it in this context because differentiating between trans women and 'women' implies that the former are not women.

That's because they're not.

Why do you feel the Special Censor Rules on FWR do not apply to you?

I haven't rtft but there seem to be a number of issues -
Persons born male cannot ever be biologically female as they do not have XX chromosomes/ovaries/a womb
However, a male that has had radical surgery to bring their body more in line with the physical characteristics of a female, and who lives their everyday life as though they were genetically female, to me, pose no threat
The main issues seem to be around self-ID and there have been some very disturbing cases and incidents where dangerous and predatory men have exploited this.
Sport - difficult. Some men (born male with XY chromosomes) may be physically advantaged over some women (XX), so it may be unfair to allow them to compete as equals. However, I am aware that there are tall, strong women (XX), who could easily outcompete men (XY) at certain sports too.
Society appears to still be fixated on sex (in all interpretations of the word)
Gender bias is a huge problem
Small acts of sex discrimination are perpetuated daily - some so subtle that they are seemingly acceptable
Female to male transitions are apparently not of such a major concern

I don't know what the answers are. If you are female, you may wish for a safe female-only space for many reasons. Therefore, a male who self-id's as female presents far more concerns than a male who has surgically amended his body radically to make it as female as possible.

I just clicked on the break-it-down thread, and I noticed Datun's post deleted, then everyone saying what a great and clear post it was.

It was. It was very amusing. It was after someone asked what peak trans meant. I might do another one, within the new, more chocolatey guidelines, but this time in rhyme - crampons with tampons, that sort of thing.

Fortunately, the concepts in that post have been disseminated far and wide, now, and it's almost obsolete.

Still, I'm sure I can work in assent with consent, and peak with peek.

^ the first sentence in my last post was obviously a quote by @lemonsqueasy.

“ the issue of not knowing what it feels like to be a woman, is that not because you are a woman and don't know anything else? Like being a twin?”

That’s an excellent point. I think I would find “I just feel like a woman and I don’t know why” much easier to accept than “I feel like a woman because [insert stereotyped female behaviour here]” Feminists have been fighting for years against the shackles of “femininity”!

Incidentally, why do you think transmen are not trying to compete in men’s sport?

I don't disagree about the concern over kids and the shared spaces. Thanks for the explanations & sorry for my accusatory language in the thread title.
Still have another issue I'm trying to find the right wording for.

the issue of not knowing what it feels like to be a woman, is that not because you are a woman and don't know anything else? Like being a twin?

Transwomen are male (by definition - females aren't allowed to be trans women), and they don't know anything else, like being a twin. That follows, I think?

So then we're back to the question - in what way are transwomen women?

I honestly don't give a shit how someone chooses to present. Men in makeup and alternative clothing isn't shocking to me. If an adult feels their mental health is alleviated by medical treatments, or surgery (which encompasses a lot) then good for them. But people can't change sex and I think that telling children who are suffering that they can is a bit fucking cruel, to be honest.

Any male born person has an identical probability of being a sexual abuser. The gender identity of a person has no measured impact on this probability. That probability is high, so that around 1/4 of women have experienced sexual violence, which in many cases leaves mental health problems

Sex based rights , which are a form of discrimination action , were granted out of respect for the impact that sexual violence has on women. To ensure the inclusion of women in society. A nod to the problem. Perhaps also influenced by the difficulty in detection and conviction of sexual violence

Note that it is the sex not the gender of a person that drives the abuse, both perpetrator and victim. So women's rights are essentially founded on an acknowledgment of the sex differences, particularly on a subset of those differences which don't go away with gender changes.

And if I were to say "well I identify as being tall" while looking down at someone they'd be fully within their rights to point at the things under my feet and go "those are stilts, mate".

The question is...why is the concept of women and girls having rights seen as 'transphobic'?

And yeah the sport thing is interesting, as a cycling fan I looked into this but came out of it not seeing a problem but can't remember why.

Lemon, you have been asked by several posters to desist from using an unnecessary and offensive prefix before the word women. You continue to use it. Why are you deliberately using language which you know will offend many women on this forum? How rude.

However, a male that has had radical surgery to bring their body more in line with the physical characteristics of a female, and who lives their everyday life as though they were genetically female, to me, pose no threat

At least 80% of transwomen have had no surgery on their genitals whatsoever.

Its about abusive men falsely self IDing as trans in order to gain access to places that were exclusively female. Its not just about rape, ffs. Does someone watching you intently as you change at the gym freak you out, a little? Does the sight of a phone slipping back over the changing room partition wall make you feel safe? Do you feel violated to learn that a secret camera was found in a mixed sex toilet cubicle at your workplace, a cubicle you use? I bet it would feel fabulous to be told by police that the footage taken was uploaded to pornhub, wouldn't you say? Use your goddamned imagination.

Oh god this?

Again?

Can you people not read?

The OP has disappeared. They don't want a discussion on a forum, nor answer any questions put to them. No point continuing is there?

Have a look though the 'break it down for me' thread.

Transwomen are male (by definition - females aren't allowed to be trans women), and they don't know anything else, like being a twin. That follows, I think?

Their sex is (was) male but their gender is female, right?

I still believe in gender stereotypes and I don’t think it’s the same as gender. I’d love to get into a calm discussion about gender, trans or not. Although my understanding is that discussions are transphobic. Either accept it or pretend you do. I suspect posts that are asking why or concerns over biological women's safety and rights are the ones you are referring too.

Gender stereotypes are a construct and it’s so important to teach children boys can wear dresses and play with barbies, that girls can play in the mud and wear a blue dinosaur t-shirt and that it doesn’t change reality. Any suggestion that it’s not okay is horrifically outdated and sexist. Gender stereotypes especially in early childhood are so prominent, girls and boys toys/clothes. What does this teach children? What about those boys (or vice-a-Versa) who are brave enough to say ‘I like unicorns and my favourite colour is pink’, who then feel they might really be a girl because society has always told them they’re girls things. Where is the scientific evidence to prove that is not the case? There’s stories of wild children such as Molby from the jungle book, who were not as well adjusted as him and struggled to behave as a ‘human’, which I think is very interesting. The human mind is fascinating. Does this mean behaving like a person is something we are taught? But regardless of if they behave like an animal more than a human, that does not make them a human. Do we not know that something similar has not happened due to heavy gender stereotypes everywhere?

Happy to have a calm discussion.

Devereux, I think lemon is the OP with a name change. They have apologized for being accusatory in the thread title.

What's gender?

@Devereux1 I'm the OP I NCed to start the thread in fear of the hate, NC back to comment on another thread, then came back here and forgot to change again