Does MN have a problem with trans people? **MNHQ edited title as OP has apologised for 'accusatory' tone**

[tryandempathise]

Seem to be threads constantly on the issue of trans.

Why?

Is it because it conflicts with the idea of sex as a construct?

Is it an age thing?

There must be mums on here with trans kids - do you just stay out of it?

Why the obsession with the idea of being attacked by trans women? Is it not the modern equivalent of homophobic blokes all thinking gay men want to rape them?

Datun's posts do tend to be remarkably clear and in deliberately level headed and non-inflammatory language, so it's a significant loss to the community when they're removed.

(If I'm the devil on one shoulder, or Lang is, Datun is the angel on the other.)

I'm aware of how much you hate 'cis' but I use it in this context because differentiating between trans women and 'women' implies that the former are not women. This is the root of the issue isn't it? I give trans women the benefit of the doubt and class them as women because why would you uproot your whole life and risk becoming a pariah over a lie?

@TiredofthisBS yep will do

lemon, I know why you use 'cis' but you need to be aware that it's against guidelines to do so, so you're going to have to jump through a few linguistic hoops to make your point. Rules are rules.

@lemonsqueasy I wait for your answer with bated breath. I'd ask that you refrain from using Cis. Personally I find the term insulting.

Or am I missing another point about sex vs gender here?

Yes you are:

Transitioning does not change the biological reality of a body's sex. It can, however, as Kristina Harrison (transwoman) said recently, allow a male person to live life being treated as if they are female - from a Telegraph article on the Maya Forstater case:

“The process of having surgery or hormone treatment cannot ultimately transform your sex,” Ms Harrison told the tribunal. “Every cell in my body has male chromosomes. I have a prostate. These things cannot be completely deconstructed. It is not possible to be biologically female. But that does not mean I can’t live a fulfilling life being treated as a woman.”

I am 28, don't hate trans people, but do have a concern about people being able to self ID.

Women have sex only spaces for a reason, rape, murder, sexual harassment - the list goes on. By being able to self ID, this takes away our sex based rights that are bought in for our protection and that is extremely worrying. There has been threads that have linked articles of women and girls being attacked by self ID trans women in these spaces now.

I wish rather than slinging the word TERF around trans women could appreciate the stance of a lot of women in the UK and educated themselves as to why there is a backlash. We can no longer express our opinions or concerns without being abused, slandered or fired and it's so so scary. Women are once again being totally shit on due to whole culture.

In what way are transwomen women though? I understand that they feel not-male, but that's not the same as feeling like a woman. I don't agree that non-man = woman.

I don't know what it means to feel like a woman, or identify as a woman, in any other sense than biological.

But then I never understood souls either when I was at catholic school.

(If I'm the devil on one shoulder, or Lang is, Datun is the angel on the other.)

Me? A devil? How very dare you! I'm a witch or I'm nothing!

Sex is not a construct. Gender is.

It is tricky to stay within talk and fwr guidelines and still make a clear point. You won't get any disagreement there!

I post on FWR because I am an atheist, feminist and materialist leftist with an interest in child protection. Everything I say hereabouts is relevant to those politics.

OP - why are you posting in support of a bourgeois, male supremacist, hyper-capitalist, ultra-libertarian neo-religion with an agenda that includes the destruction of child safeguarding?

One would hope that clarifies things.

The word cis is not required to differentiate between XY trans people and women.

Women and transwomen will do perfectly well. There is no need to insult women by suggesting we are a subcategory of out own sex class. We are not, we are the whole category. Transwomen are not a part of our sex class at all. They are a subcategory of the m ale sex class.

If you wish to be trans inclusive about the female sex class you would talk of women, including transmen and not mentions XY trans people at all. XX trans people are the subset of the female sex class.

I would like answers to the issues around women’s sport, please, @tryandempathise.

Biological reality trumps feelings

I'm not concerned about being "attacked" by a trans person I'm concerned by people pretending to be trans to get access to vulnerable people about persons who shove a tampon up there arse and demand women wax there balls I'm concerned about persons with sword sticks in the ladies bathroom bleating about transphobic women because someone refused to share a space with them when they had it out (the sword stick obviously) I'm concerned because rapists who claim they are women are being locked up with women when they still have a fully functioning penis

I'm concerned this is a goady post but just in case there you go

Yes, we would all prefer it if everyone could speak plainly. Sadly the guidelines were imposed upon us because transactivists pressured MNHQ to stop us from stating the sex of people where it was relevant to do so. To try and be even-handed, MNHQ also stopped us being called Cis and TERFs. We have to work around despite it being ridiculous and borderline abusive to specific people, so you will too.

Halloween is already over, put your witch costume away!

The problem with "cis" is that it's a lie. I don't identify with what society says women should be like at all. I think a lot of it is bollocks. That doesn't mean that I don't want to be a woman, though, it means that I object to sexism and the way it distorts societies.

@lemonsqueasy- could you say a bit about women’s sport, please?

lemon, the issue for us is male entitlement and violence. We want women to be able to maintain whatever boundaries they need to set. Men have proved themselves quite determined over millennia to disregard those boundaries, transactivism is just the latest wedge issue.

Why do Stonewall define being homosexual as based on gender identity not sex? This is homophobic.

Gender does not equal sex. By the admission of trans people themselves. You can not be trans if sex does not exist. The whole definition of trans is a reference to sex. Yet we are told that sex is a construct?

This is nonsense we are being told we have to believe, repeat and conform to. Without question. And if we don't we are at best bigots or at worst we should be either prosecuted for or 'die in a fire'.

Single sex accommodation was set up because it was recognised that this best protected women. This is what the UN recommend in developing countries.

Yet now we are being told that we are more civilised than those countries and both sexes can now share accommodation because its all about protecting trans people and they are absolutely safe and this change can not possibly be exploited or misused by abusive men. Why is it OK to say that those countries are not OK and we are better than them? Is there something fundamentally racist in there? And by extension are we saying we have progressed as a society to the point where we don't have a problem with sex crimes so we no longer need single sex accommodation? Cos that's a pretty big statement and I wonder who has pushed that despite the evidence. Evidence which is now being undermined and made worthless by stating that the sex of offenders is irrelevant in sex crimes and only gender matters. And of course this can't be exploited or manipulated.

All the evidence says differently. And we are supposed to ignore this too.

So yeah, us on MN are just ignorant and should suck up what we are told and behave like good little girls cos how people identify doesn't affect us, is perfectly fine and without risk and ultimately a progressive way forward. Cos someone says so.

Woe betide anyone with half a brain cell who can use it to think further than the end of their nose and their safe little bubble of life to anyone caught at the sharp end of this.

@DickKerrLadies the issue of not knowing what it feels like to be a woman, is that not because you are a woman and don't know anything else? Like being a twin?

Apologies OP, I missed your post about transmen (oh, the irony!) whilst I wasn't here - things are moving quickly.

Often, it's the group known as transmen that we're most concerned about - there has been a massive increase in the numbers of teenage girls presenting to gender clinics. In a number of these cases, these girls are autistic, lesbian or have suffered CSA.

I suppose my belief is that in at least some cases, gender dysphoria may be a symptom rather than a cause and I think it's wise to at least consider these things when a child feels they do not identify with their sex rather than jumping to irreversible treatment options which won't help if the GD is a result of something else.

Transmen being put into men's prisons and raping the inmates isn't something we need to consider for a number of reasons, whereas transwomen have been placed in women's prisons and have been convicted of raping other inmates.

The trans issue aside, the prison statistics regarding male and female crime are really interesting. The numbers alone were quite surprising.

So women, rightly concerned, about males using self ID to access women's sex segregated spaces are transphobic? why?

Do you not care about the women who for various reason can not be around men? Do they not have a voice, are they not allowed a say in What affects their rights to privacy and dignity?

Women are not a subset of men. Most of us do not identify as women we are women be a of biology and that's it.