Only consenting to receiving medical treatment from a female is not acceptable

[Siameasy]

mobile.twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1198215833006362630

One NHS trust says it’s unacceptable for women to say they only consent to medical treatment from “natal females”. I find this completely outrageous and couldn’t find a thread on it already. Bloody hell!

The difference is, I’m saying I understand your point of view. I don’t say it’s wrong.

You however keep telling me how wrong I am, and why.

They’ve not isolated a gene for same sex relationships yet, but I don’t think we’re looking for unicorns in anticipating it?

Who knew, a forum for feminism and females in outcry because other females don’t all agree! Guess it’s only me seeing the irony.

Someone else being homosexual does not affect who I have sex with.

Who knew a forum about feminism is up in arms because most of the planet doesn’t think women have penises. 🤷‍♀️

We’re not talking about who we have sex with. It’s about who we have treating us medically!

I mentioned the possibility of there being a genetic reason for transgenderism and it was called looking for unicorns. I align it with the possibility of finding different gene arrangements for hetero or same sex attraction - it’s genes. Regardless of how it plays out. It’s biology, just different biology.

Same sex relationships have been the target of so many horrific judgements, when anyone who has half a brain knows it’s just a variation, as are so many different sexual preferences. As women we’re already the target of so much judgement and assumption- and yet it’s ok to say ‘but you don’t have a womb! You’re not real!’

What’s the reaction to some idiot looking at a female who chooses to present in a non-typical female way and calls her ‘butch dyke’ - without even knowing them?

Double standards much

You can try with your sad attempts At guilt tripping us but it won’t work.

You however keep telling me how wrong I am, and why.

And you're not?

Отдыхаю мой чемодан

You however keep telling me how wrong I am, and why.

That’s the thing about science. It’s true whether you believe it or not.

How is that resting your case, Bunny?

I think everyone understands your point of view, Bunny, you accept transwomen for who they say they are and you're just lovely. That's fine, and 100% irrelevant to the thread. And I'm sure there are genes for transgenderism, and that's also 100% irrelevant. Same-sex attraction? Also irrelevant.

Your right to accept transwomen as whoever they say they are is not under any threat. Accept whoever and whatever the hell you like. This thread is about a woman's right that is under threat; the right to choose a same sex health care provider. Do you agree that we have that right?

‘but you don’t have a womb! You’re not real!’

oh ffs.

Even if there is a genetic cause of gender dysphoria, it does not change the fact that male-to-female transgender people retain male physiology: this means they are on average stronger than females and that they can impregnate females.

In some situations, that is a problem. A genetic explanation for transgenderism does not address the issue of fairness in sport, for example.

Nobody is denying that it is hard to suffer from gender dysphoria. We disagree on how this suffering should be addressed.

I mentioned the possibility of there being a genetic reason for transgenderism

You do know there is a very well research and understood genetic reason for sex, yet you want to dismiss this?

It's thought there is a belief in god gene People who have it are much more likely to believe in a god. Someone else having that gene doesn't mean I have to worship in their church.

There may be a gene for gender-dysphoria. It doesn't mean I have to pretend that the person carrying it is biologically their opposite sex.

There are definitely genes for schizophrenia. That doesn't make the voices that people with florid schizophrenia hear actual, real voices.

A genetic explanation for transgenderism would be an explanation of why some people, born one sex, sincerely and strongly felt they ought to have been born the opposite sex. It still would not make them the opposite sex.

(Bit like the so-called "god region" of the brain, which has been isolated on MRI scans as being active in people with religious belief when they experience what they describe as religious feelings, and largely dormant in non-believers. It explains the feelings; it doesn't establish that there is a god.)

No, it doesn’t recognise previous traumas, or preferences.

Honestly, what goes through someone's head as they write something like this and then shrug their shoulders and go "oh well"?

Medical care should be centered on the needs of the patients. This is not a difficult principle to grasp.

Bunny, just so we are clear.

If I would rather see a female HCP, you think I should be forced to see a male one, or not access healthcare?

& again, I personally would usually be fiiiiine seeing a male HCP. My preferred gynae is a man, from the list available at my local clinic.

But you'd like to take away my right, & anyone else's right, to see a same sex HCP if we choose to do so?

So - get in the stirrups & accept the male person who may or not be telling you he's a woman?

That's what you'd like to see?

@Bunnyfuller I don't want to "slam" you, I would just like to clarify.

what does it "feel like" to be a woman - has anyone actually checked that what the transwomen feel like actually is what women feel like? without that check, maybe what they feel like is ... transwomen? what happens with women who don't share that feeling, assuming it can be defined?

given a group of XY chromosomed people all of whom have had no surgery or hormones but assert themselves to be women, it is known (perhaps via someone posting anonymously online about their fetish) that one of these people does not in fact think themselves to be a woman but gets an erotic sexual thrill from being treated as one - how will the nhs determine which of the people in this group genuinely have this feeling you defined above and which is the impostor?

and what do we tell our daughters, as they grow up, about themselves as women (or not). do we tell them of this special feeling that transwomen seem so confidently able to define but those of us who have been dealing with having a uterus since puberty are less sure of how universal thay feeling is - and tell them that if they don't have such a feeling they should entertain the possibility they may not be a woman after all?

and can I just check, is this "what it feels like to be a woman" feeling at all possible to be misidentified by someone who has grown up in a sexist environment. such as, for example, western civilisation in the late 20th or early 21st Century?

While i do understand that some people want a bio female. Again it's looking at it from two sides, most trans women I/my son know wouldn't actually mind if someone said they wanted a bio female. Upset of course but understand. But if you say only bio women, were does that leave you when a perosn with a beard, muscles and a deep voice walks in cause there a trans man? You wouldn't want that either, but you then end up just saying no trans people. Saying you want a women treating you, a obvious trans women walks in you say no you don't have to turn round and say why. Nhs policy actually says you can refuse anyone for any reason.
My sons training to be a children's nurse, he is not obviously trans, he dosent mention it to anyone to be honest. Nobody knows, he rarely gets the i only want a man though as it's children's and that's a rarer ask.

Nhs policy actually says you can refuse anyone for any reason.

The problem is that they're now producing guidance that contradicts that. If they were sticking to the "anyone can refuse any HCP for any reason" policy this thread wouldn't exist.

It's not about the hcp for pete's sake, they are there to do a job and their priority is their patient.

Anyone who hears a patient say 'I want a female hcp' and turns up with a beard, or goes as a TW without telling them, has zero interest, compassion or awareness for women or the reasons why a female person may ask for a female hcp. They're either under trained or incapable of putting someone else's interests before their own, which means they shouldn't be doing the job.

Again what you are basically saying is, women suffer quietly and put trans needs first.

No.

I just don’t judge anyone. I accept people for who they are, who they feel they are. Judging anyone causes division. I’m not removing anyone’s rights, but I’m not joining in a proposal to refuse to accept a trans female as a female.

This goes beyond the right to be treated by same sex. That’s not the issue. The issue is some will not accept a mtf trans woman as a woman. And it is that which is where we disagree. I accept some would rather be treated by women. No problem with that, the reasons are nothing to do with me and I cannot possibly know the levels of trauma and distress any other human has gone through, or what certain situations trigger.

But this is saying, regardless of how a mtf presents, wishes to be known as, lives - they will always be a man. Bloody hell, we’ve spent forever to escape outdated , generalised and stereotypical attitudes and judgements...

I don’t have a ‘special feeling’. Women aren’t better than men, or vice versa. We’re all just people. Why all the fricking labels? I could understand this in a 1970s working man club, but seriously?!

Not only do you think it’s ok to exclude a whole swathe of humanity as far as this subject goes, but you have firmly closed minds to OTHER females who do not. You can’t just say ‘we’re right, so shut up’. That’s exactly how women used to be treated by males and society.

Not a good look

if the type of body a person possessed made no difference to how they on average acted, then I would be totally with you

The sad fact is however that it someone's body type, specifically their sex, not their gender, words or expressed feelings, that affects their behaviour and likelyhood to offend and hurt others

Do you have any idea how many women have been violently assaulted by men who assured them they loved them unconditionally? I amn't interested in pretty words I am interested in facts.

Oh and for clarity that is not judging anyone in particular that's judging the behaviour of a class or group

That doesn't mean i think ' everyone in the group behaves the same way, it doesn't even mean I think that the majority of people in the group behave the same way