Only consenting to receiving medical treatment from a female is not acceptable

[Siameasy]

mobile.twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1198215833006362630

One NHS trust says it’s unacceptable for women to say they only consent to medical treatment from “natal females”. I find this completely outrageous and couldn’t find a thread on it already. Bloody hell!

Going back to RTFof thelastpageoftheT, but here's a two pennorth from the ME - I'm an expat.

Arranging a medical appointment is slightly different here, inasmuch as you don't go via a GP. You book directly to a clinic to see a specialist in whatever's giving you gyp (& they refer you on if necessary - say you've booked ENT but actually they think you've got bronchitis).

I've had a few gynae appointments over the last couple of years over odd menopausal stuff.

When I book online, first I select 'gynaecologist' from a drop down menu. Then preferred day/time - & the system then tells me who is available.

So let's say this next drop down menu offers me Drs Amira, Mohamed, Malek or Nour.

The first two are obviously female & male respectively. If I book to see either, I get an automated email response saying:

'Thank you for your booking. Dr Amira (or Mohamed) can see you on Friday at 4pm as requested. She (he) looks forward to welcoming you then.'

Here's where it gets interesting!

Malek & Nour are both unisex names - homophonic, at least to non Arabic speaking ears, but with different conventional English spellings to differentiate the male/female versions. Think Leslie/Lesley or Tony/Toni. However it's not quite that clear cut - most but not all Nours are women, most but not all men spell it Noor etc.

If I book Dr Nour, I get the same response as for Dr Amira ('she looks forward to welcoming you...'). Nour MIGHT possibly be male, but she's not. It's assumed that I've booked a female-sounding gynae, I'm expecting & getting a female HCP & am happy with that.

If I book Dr Malek, I get the response with an extra line. This is all in Arabic & Google translate/my Arabic aren't great, but it basically says 'Dr Malek is a male practitioner. If you would prefer to see a woman, please cancel & re-book with Dr Amira or Dr Nour.'

So it's understood that I might be expecting Malek (bloke) to be Malak (woman) & they think it's important to check - whereas if I mistakenly thought Nour (woman) was Noor (man), that doesn't need flagging - because wanting to see a same sex HCP is recognised as a reasonable, pretty much default, expectation.

They quite sensibly assume that if I book an obviously male doctor, (Mohamed) for a gynae procedure I must be cool with seeing him. If I book a female HCP (Amira or Nour) I'm also assumed to have chosen to see her.

If I book a doctor with an ambiguous name, they feel they need to tell me 'actually you do know he's a chap, right?!" in a way that they don't need to clarify that 'Nour' is female.

One might ALMOST think that they jolly well recognise that some women would prefer not to see a male gynaecologist, & that that is perfectly reasonable, & they have a duty of care to ensure that it's an informed choice. Because that's massively...common sense.

For the record, given the option, I go with Dr Malek, who is brilliant. But if seeing a same sex HCP was important to me, they are making sure that that is exactly what I get.

Most HCPs can see that people seeing someone for an intimate procedure would prefer to have a clearly signposted option to see a same sex practitioner. It's not flipping rocket science.

Solidarity to all the brave women who have shared their experiences here

And Please don’t ever be shamed into seeing an opposite-sex HCP for vaginary (etc) treatments if you prefer same-sex.

(Or vice versa for people who are indifferent or prefer male HCPs)

One might ALMOST think that they jolly well recognise that some women would prefer not to see a male gynaecologist, & that that is perfectly reasonable, & they have a duty of care to ensure that it's an informed choice. Because that's massively...common sense.

And also, this is not some odd thing that a few British women have come up with because, well, old, and the Brits are a bit funny about bodies. This is actually pretty common. My best friend is from a predominantly non-Muslim country in Asia (east, not south) and prefers a woman gyno if at all possible. She has said that one of the things she prefers about living overseas is that it's much easier to find a female gyno where we live as there are more of them - she would have preferred one in the country she grew up in too, but at the time there were hardly any. There are more now, and patient preference seems to be driving that.

I was chatting to my DM about this today. She was a midwife for 45 yrs and only ever encountered 2 male midwives. Both trained in the hospital she worked in. One emigrated soon after qualifying, the other was a staff midwife in the Labour ward where she was a Sister.

DM would allocate the staff to patients at the start of the shift and more often than not the male midwife would return to the desk as the patient refused to be cared for by a man while giving birth. There was never any issue the male midwife would then be allocated other duties and he had no problem with it. He put the rights of the mothers above his own feelings as all HCPs should. DM told me he moved to community midwifery but then required a chaperone as intimate checks are part of post natal care. So that meant a female midwife had to accompany him to a lot of his visits. A waste of resources imo.

DM is horrified that women may have to accept male HCPs against their will. She said most women her age early 70s would have opted out of smears and mammos if this had been the case. She said she is relieved to be past all that now as she would have gone without screening rather than risk having a male. She is not keen on male midwives though the 2 she knew were competent and sympathetic to patients.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/09/tutor-not-job-man-roofer-male-midwife-nhs

My tutor told me she didn’t think men should be midwives, because what would they know about women and childbirth? That’s like saying an orthopaedic surgeon has to go and break a few bones before they can know how to repair them...

...I’m 50 now and have encountered a certain amount of sexism in my career. I’ve had 118 people – mostly women – refuse to be cared for by me. I have had other patients who were shocked to see a man; there was one who didn’t say anything, but the look of total shock on her face was very funny.

Yes it's always funny when women are uncomfortable but don't dare say anything.

Interesting to contrast with this article they published 17 years ago:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2003/may/14/familyandrelationships.nhs

What kind of person would choose to go into a field where they know many patients won't want to be cared for by them?

Can the status of traditional "women's jobs" ever be changed though if men are barred from doing them?

I've often read on here that many jobs have low status and pay because they are always done by women - carers, childcare , nursing, primary school teaching - and that the remedy to that is for men to do these jobs, yet then we have discussions where men who choose to enter these professions are viewed with suspicion.

How do we change things without accepting change?

I've often read on here that many jobs have low status and pay because they are always done by women - carers, childcare , nursing, primary school teaching - and that the remedy to that is for men to do these jobs

Really? Because I’ve often read that the remedy is for those jobs to be recognised as having value despite the fact that they are primarily carried out by women and paid in accordance with a revised view of the importance of those jobs to society continuing to function. Not remedied by shoehorning men into them regardless.

It most definitely is an argument that I've seen on here, particularly when careers advice in schools has been discussed.

Alongside girls being encouraged into studying STEM at uni I've seen arguments for boys being encouraged into nursing, primary school teaching, childcare etc.

Teaching is not the same as intimate care.

"Gynecologist" is not a low status job. Also change of tactics noted.

It's not a change of tactic. This is a discussion. The subject moved on and I have as much right to participate in it as you do.

Gynecologist" is not a low status job

I thought we were talking about male midwives, not gynaecologists? That's what the comments were about anyway.

We're talking about HCPs who provide intimate care to women. As we have been since the beginning of the thread.

Yes, it is an argument that's made. I've made it. But for those who actually possess a modicum of common sense, firstly, there will be professions which involve specifically intimate care that will prove more complicated, as already described and secondly, any fucking entitled idiot who thinks his presence alarming vulnerable women is funny should probably stick to hod-carrying.

No, I was replying to the poster who specifically raised the issue of male midwives, and the follow on comments about what sort of man does a job where he knows he isn't wanted. Those comments related to male midwives.

But for those who actually possess a modicum of common sense, firstly, there will be professions which involve specifically intimate care that will prove more complicated,

Yes, most nursing jobs do for a start off. So how do you legislate for that? The only way really is to stop men from entering the profession unless they are going to work on male wards only. You'd also have to consider the issue in regards to district nursing too as how can you predict what requirements patients in the community will have?

Intimate care is a big part of ward based nursing so I don't think it's as straightforward as saying men don't do cervical screening or mammograms. There's many more instances where intimate care is required.

Yes, there are, and women are entitled to request another woman every single time.

I appreciate the public service argumentativeness is your thing, but are you sure you just don't get that women have rights even if you don't feel the need for them?

public service argumentativeness

I should send you a gift basket for the holidays just for this phrase.

it would be appropriate to re-iterate that the ward is is indeed female and that there are no men present.

Surely nurses know more biology than that? Y chromosome equals male. Yes, even if you're in the minority who've had full surgery.

I’m 50 now and have encountered a certain amount of sexism in my career. I’ve had 118 people – mostly women – refuse to be cared for by me. I have had other patients who were shocked to see a man; there was one who didn’t say anything, but the look of total shock on her face was very funny.

What a horrible person. And also seemingly ignorant on the importance of mammals feeling safe for labour to progress smoothly. Bit worrying for a midwife.

My friend had a male midwife appear at a crucial stage of labour, nobody checking with her if it was OK. She didn't feel empowered to object. She just felt uncomfortable and guilty (she is (was?) classically lib fem).... And there started the medicalisation of what had been a normal labour.

(I'm not suggesting medicine in labour is always wrong. Or that some male midwives aren't great. But with hindsight my friend believes the arrival of an unconsented male was a factor)

[women's] jobs have low status and pay

So pay them more and recognise their importance. Problem solved.

I'm increasingly thinking that steering women into the S T and E bits of STEM (because midwifery and nursing are definitely part of the M) is about fixing the women rather than fixing the structural problems underpinning the sexed ("gender" my arse, TW in my field are paid well) pay gap.

No, I was replying to the poster who specifically raised the issue of male midwives, and the follow on comments about what sort of man does a job where he knows he isn't wanted. Those comments related to male midwives.

Stop dissembling. You do this on every thread.

Male midwives were mentioned as an exemplar of professions involving intimate care.

There is no relevance to other female-dominated (and under valued) professions that do not involve providing intimate care.

If you want to talk about other professions, start a thread. This one is about the provision of intimate care to women.

I'm increasingly thinking that steering women into the S T and E bits of STEM (because midwifery and nursing are definitely part of the M) is about fixing the women rather than fixing the structural problems underpinning the sexed ("gender" my arse, TW in my field are paid well) pay gap.

Completely agree. Does nothing to fix the undervaluing of what is seen as "women's work".

I'm increasingly thinking that steering women into the S T and E bits of STEM [...] is about fixing the women

And I say that as a career computer scientist.