Only consenting to receiving medical treatment from a female is not acceptable

[Siameasy]

mobile.twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1198215833006362630

One NHS trust says it’s unacceptable for women to say they only consent to medical treatment from “natal females”. I find this completely outrageous and couldn’t find a thread on it already. Bloody hell!

We got there!

I completely respect your right to believe that TWAW under your belief system and to choose whichever hcp suits you best.

I appreciate your reciprocal gesture of respect for my right to the belief that sex is fixed and unchangeable, and to need a biologically female hcp in some circumstances.

it's like the 1914 truce round here

MIdgebabe, you say as long as we respect other opinions and can find a way forward that does not discriminate unnecessarily and harmfully. Where tensions arise, a certain pragmatism is needed. That pragmatism should be focussed on minimising harm all around.

That's a paragraph that warrants examination.

When it comes to the right of women to specify female HCP for smears and mammography, those women have no need to "respect other opinions". It's irrelevant

For female patients to specify the sex of their HCP is intrinsically discriminatory. However such discrimination is neither unnecessary or harmful unless you're looking at it from the perspective of a man who identifies as a woman and wants to perform female intimate care. Such an individual might see their treatment as harmful and unnecessary. But as HCPs are there to serve the interests of patients rather than the other way round it's irrelevant.

Your next sentence is very odd. "Where tensions arise"? What tensions would those be precisely? And what course of action would a "certain pragmatism" imply? Sounds very odd. Almost threatening.

The idea that we should focus on "minimising harm all around" is an odd remark unless you are including the interests of the HCP.

If that's your meaning you have misunderstood the relationship between a HCP and their patient. The patient has absolutely no obligation to validate the HCP and there should be no harm to minimise. The only way I can make that sentence make sense is if the harm referred to is the perceived affront to a MtF when female patients don't perceive them as a woman.

I may have completely misunderstood your post. If so i apologize. But it's a weird paragraph.

I think my post is speaking more generally than just the HCP /patient scenario. A sort of rule for myself to think about things. I am always trying to be fair.

works in this case though.
What harm can come to a transwoman...it may slightly restrict the roles they can do, that may upset them, what harm can come to a woman...major distress, possible avoidance of essential check ups , death. Who is in the position of vulnerability...the woman...I guess a way for me of stepping back from the emotion.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7727861/GP-50-says-unfair-patients-doctors-avoid-intimate-breast-examinations.html

Already convicted of 17 counts of sexual assaults
On trail for more

I don't understand at all why you actually came here to argue over all these pages on this thread when you could have just said the above.
And I don't understand why you care what many many of us women want when it doesn't affect you in any way?

Because this shouldn't be an echo chamber with only one view being expressed. Why shouldn't women with different views to yours be allowed to say what their view is? And secondly, I've not once said that all women should do X because that's what I choose, but someone has said on here that women should only have female hcps (?for intimate procedures though they didn't make that clear). So why don't I have the right to say that I don't want that, that I want the right for me to be able to choose from both and male hcps? Just as I don't get the right to choose for you, none of you should get the right to choose for me.

Because this shouldn't be an echo chamber with only one view being expressed.

Just to clarify this point, you are arguing because too many people were agreeing with each other and you didn't like it?

I want the right for me to be able to choose from both and male hcps?

You currently have that. it's literally what you came here to argue against.

That some straw edifice that is! Like what we're asking for is a completely sex segregated NHS. Sure you really thought that

So why don't I have the right to say that I don't want that, that I want the right for me to be able to choose from both and male hcps?

1. Does the NHS Constitution actually grant your asserted right to request an opposite-sex HCP?
2. I would hope that for a smear test, a female HCP would be provided automatically, because a lot of women don't want a male doing their smear and the rest probably don't care either way.

However such discrimination is neither unnecessary or harmful unless you're looking at it from the perspective of a man who identifies as a woman and wants to perform female intimate care. Such an individual might see their treatment as harmful and unnecessary. But as HCPs are there to serve the interests of patients rather than the other way round it's irrelevant.

I think I have a difficulty looking at it like this because I was on the other side. I was a young female nurse working on a male urology ward. There were about 10 qualified nurses and only 3 were male. I certainly didn't particularly want to work on that ward, it was the only job available when I qualified and so I took it. The work was interesting, the team was great, we undertook new and varied procedures because we were a specialist unit within the hospital so I view other hcps working in different areas as having similar reasons for being in the job. I wouldn't look at a male nurse working in a GP practice as being there for nefarious reasons or for trying to force women into participating in their fantasy. I certainly never heard a male nurse or Dr speaking about any patient in such a way. Yes, the talk about our private lives was probably more explicit than you'd hear in other company but that's more to do with what you see and deal with every day at work. That is not to say it doesn't happen. It does of course but it is not the motivator for the very vast majority of male hcps. Certainly I have never felt the need to ask for a chaperone when being examined. Often the Dr will request one and that's fine. They're following procedure and I have no problem with it but I've not seen anything among male hcps to make me feel that it's something that I need to do. Obviously if you've had a different experience then you will feel differently but I'm still allowed to make what I feel are the right choices for me.

You currently have that. it's literally what you came here to argue against.

And a pp said they wanted that to stop. I disagreed and got jumped on. So, yes, I'm arguing against someone wanting to remove my right to choose.

I'm arguing against someone wanting to remove my right to choose.

Right, so the echo chamber you mentioned is now one person?

And a pp said they wanted that to stop.

No, they didn’t. The post was slightly unclear, but the poster came back and clarified for you.
Funny you can remember the first post, but not the second.

If you have selective recall when making your point could be why some of your arguments are harder to parse - but if your point is to not to let a thread stand where posters are in agreement, then that makes more sense I guess.

sorry if this has already been said, but to respond to HHTZ, and your experience as a nurse-
there is a HUGE difference between a male HCP and a TW HCP. The male nurse/doctor is visibly and obviously male, and a patient may decline care or request a chaperone if they wish. A TW is deliberately disguising their sex and personally I would not want any intimate care from a person who is essentially lying about who they are (nb I am talking about a hypothetical TW)
I trained as a mw and worked with a few male mws, 2 in particular were excellent and gave respectful woman centred care. But no one could have been in any doubt about their sex and so were fully informed and able to request an alternative.

Public service argumentativeness is a new one. So selfless.

Having said that all my gynaecologists have been male. I prefer someone neutral and clinical rather than a cheerleader.

I respect your right to request and have a male gyn, but describing female gyns as "cheerleaders" is very sexist.

You removed consent for the [coil fitting] procedure and they carried on anyway.

Would they think that I did? I was screaming and sobbing but I didn't scream "no". I just assumed that this level of pain was normal.

Who was doing it?

An ob/gyn and a midwife. Perhaps they are used to patients screaming...

The policy linked to in the OP has a rather strong connection with the Guardian's actions in setting up a TW with a lesbian woman on a blind date. Both involve attempting to pressure women to validate transgender identity as overriding biological sex in male people, over and above their own right to personal choice and bodily autonomy.

Public service argumentativeness

IKR?

PROHIBITED CONDUCT UNDER THE EQUALITY ACT

1) Harassment

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/26

A service provider is prohibited from subjecting you to unwanted conduct related to a protected characteristic that has the purpose or effect of violating your dignity or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for you.

'Unwanted conduct' related to the protected characteristic of sex, in a medical environment, can include things like:

• Placing male patients on female wards
• Gaslighting female patients by telling them that a male patient is female
• Sending a male HCP to do an intimate procedure when a female patient has specifically requested a female HCP

I don't need to explain why these things can violate women's dignity and create an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for us because plenty of posters have already done that over 28 pages

Oh look, there's another example of harassment -

• making women explain why they don't want a male HCP

This is what the single sex exceptions are FOR - they're a tool to help service providers not harass us. They don't have to use them but they still must not harass us and they don't seem to have come up with any alternative tools.

ANY WOMAN SUBJECTED TO THIS TREATMENT BY THE NHS HAS A CLAIM FOR HARASSMENT

Thanks pencils ( )

Have you posted that on the guardian blind date thread? I'll c and p it if not - with your permission?

Because women's right to privacy and dignity must be opposed on the Feminist board to prevent the appearance of agreement among women?
Are you effing kidding me?

PROHIBITED CONDUCT UNDER THE EQUALITY ACT

2) Victimisation

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/27

A service provider is prohibited from treating you badly if you make a complaint, raise a grievance or bring proceedings under the equality act, give evidence or information related to someone else's complaint or legal case, make an allegation that someone has contravened the equality act or do any other thing for the purposes of or in connection with this Act Or if you haven't done any of these things but the service provider believes you have or that you might do.

These are called 'protected acts'. You don't have to expressly mention the equality act and you are still protected from victimisation if your complaint or legal case is unsuccessful or if you were mistaken in what the law said or meant. As long as you are acting in good faith you are protected.

Examples of victimisation in this context can include things like:

• telling off a female patient because she says she feels uncomfortable and anxious about being on the same ward as a male patient
• moving her off the ward because she complains
• disciplining a HCP for preventing harassment of female patients
• disciplining a HCP for questioning one of these policies
• receiving a written request from a patient that the service provider use a single sex exception, making clear her consent to be treated by female HCP for mammography, cervical smears or any other intimate procedure and withdrawing blanket consent in advance for situations where this is not possible, and then including those letters (edited to misrepresent) in your publicly available policy as examples of 'highly discriminatory' 'unacceptable communications' which must be referred to the 'Equality, Inclusion and Diversity team'

ANY WOMAN SUBJECTED TO THIS TREATMENT HAS A CLAIM FOR VICTIMISATION

Seriously, I hope Claire Dimyon (sp?) sues them to the far side of fuck for harassment and victimisation and I will gladly help in any way that I can.

But sweeping transgender mtf into it is saying you don’t accept transgender mtf as women
Bingo, that would be because they are not.
Basic biology.
And his rights stop where mine start.