Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Only consenting to receiving medical treatment from a female is not acceptable

999 replies

Siameasy · 23/11/2019 18:28

mobile.twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1198215833006362630

One NHS trust says it’s unacceptable for women to say they only consent to medical treatment from “natal females”. I find this completely outrageous and couldn’t find a thread on it already. Bloody hell!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 24/11/2019 19:59

Me too Bunny. I thought they were going to break my rib at one point. The pain was unbelievable as was the bruising from it.

Coupled with the angina pain brought on by the drug given to speed my heart up it was no way simply an ultrasound of my chest.

GetbusywiththeFizzee · 24/11/2019 20:03

Bloody hell GetBusy I had missed PomBear's key post.

No probs Handsoff, there is an admirable derail going on at the moment but we can’t allow it go unnoticed - too important .

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 24/11/2019 20:03

Who cares whether a mammogram or an echowhatsit is worse or more painful or more invasive or whatever?

I want to be able to request a woman for the stuff I want a woman for, based on me.

Every other bastard gets to self define every single thing about themselves. Well I am ShesDressedInBlackAgain and I want a woman for smears, mammograms, breast exams, vulval exams and a whole host of other shit I don't know about yet but when you explain the procedure I'll let you know. And so does my mother and so does my dd. And my dh wants a bloke for his prostate exam and anything else to do with his arse and dangly bits. We're not fucking children (except for dd), we're not fucking stupid, we're not fucking odd, we're 90% of the fucking population and you can't just gaslight us into accepting your regressive homophobic, rapey bullshit.

pombear · 24/11/2019 20:05

Thanks GetBusy - feels like we're waving across a busy room!

Maybe it needs a separate thread.

Ironically, If Rowan's who I think Rowan is, recently Rowan complained on twitter that:-

Yeah all this chat has actually super triggered me, fuck anyone who doesn’t value trauma informed boundaries im tired

Oh Rowan, just your 'trauma informed boundaries' eh? Not female ones?

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 24/11/2019 20:07

Sorry pombear

Yeah Rowan eh? What's Rowan's qualification to advise the NHS?

forkfun · 24/11/2019 20:11

@Bunnyfuller I'm sorry to hear about your health concerns and I'm sorry to read that, like many people on this forum, you have experienced male violence. You have obviously dealt with it in your own way and for you, personally, it has not resulted in you feeling uncomfortable having medical treatment by male-bodied hcps.
I can understand that. Can you understand that there are many women who are not comfortable with being examined by male bodied hcps? I, for example, have a female dentist and would never see a male dentist. That is, because of the trauma I experienced, I would have a serious panic attack. I suffer from PTSD. I'm not a snowflake. I have overcome a lot. I'm a fully functioning member of society, but it's never enough. I need to shut up or get private healthcare. Because I'm pathetic for wanting to be treated by female doctor and nurses. Because I was sexually abused by a man for many many years as a child and teenager.
So no, I will not tolerate your view. I will not. You have no right to take my rights away. No right at all!
This thread has been brutal. It's great to see that many are still here, not shutting up. Thank you to you all. It's good to know you are not abandoning your sisters.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 24/11/2019 20:12

Who cares whether a mammogram or an echowhatsit is worse or more painful or more invasive or whatever?

Well clearly the poster who wrote that a mere ultrasound of your chest doesn't count and is in no way to be compared to a painful mammogram.

GetbusywiththeFizzee · 24/11/2019 20:16

Hi Pombear sometimes takes a while to get heard above the noise 😀

ShesdressedinBlackagain if I’m right and it’s the same Rowan; became involved in a certain type of activism whilst.... wait for it .... drum roll please ....studying Biology at Oxford.

pombear · 24/11/2019 20:17

Shes. I think it's great that the NHS is advised by lots of different perspectives to ensure services can be delivered as sensitively and appropriately as possible.

Hell, I'm actively involved in doing so in my own work.

It just seems that, on this subject in particular, Rowan's experience of being a person [I don't think I can say much more without being in breach of the FWR guidance] with certain experiences, seems to outweigh any other perspective. In particular, that of adult human females.

And there's not much chance for due diligence. (ie. someone who presented a 'how to deal with TERFS' presentation may not be the best person to advise on how to approach a traumatised female, ill in hospital, who knows that a male-bodied person is on her female-only ward).

Though that seems a common theme in NHS patient involvement - the emphasis on patient engagement, alongside the lack of capacity, resource and investment to manage this properly (and this is where the true 'NHS resources' issues comes in) means that the loudest activists and patient representatives are picked up and relied on, and some of the quieter, important perspectives are lost.

Bunnyfuller · 24/11/2019 20:21

@forkfun

Thank you for your balanced post.

Yes,I can totally understand why some women have their view, and in none of my posts have I suggested otherwise. I’ve just said, for me personally, it isn’t an issue. I haven’t tried to convince people. I haven’t used offensive accusations, or tried to belittle them. I’m not responsible for the NHS policy, and I personally am not taking away anyone’s rights. I haven’t even asked to be understood. I gave a view and got savaged, called several horrible things and dismissed.

Women knocking other women down, for disagreeing.

I made a mistake coming here, I thought it was a place for healthy debate, not ganging up on someone for having a different perspective.

Please feel free to report my posts and get them removed. I didn’t want to derail the thread, but I felt v cornered into defending myself, and that was also rejected.

I’m gone.

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/11/2019 20:24

So that would include ward based nursing too? Maybe we should staff all wards with same sex staff?

Oh don't be silly.

How on earth is maintaining the normal status quo of some females requesting female only hcps for some specific intimate procedures something to hyperbolically inflate into 'so we should have wards with same sex staff?' which isn't status quo or usual practice at all. What are you on about?

GetbusywiththeFizzee · 24/11/2019 20:24

Forkfun, sorry to read about your traumatic past 💐 and 💪 for getting through as you have.
Sorry you have had to read some of the hateful, misogynistic bile that has been posted on this thread. Keep healing.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 24/11/2019 20:26

Yes I think more due diligence would lead to us hearing a lot less from quite a few of our usual suspects...

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 24/11/2019 20:27

How on earth is maintaining the normal status quo of some females requesting female only hcps for some specific intimate procedures something to hyperbolically inflate into 'so we should have wards with same sex staff?' which isn't status quo or usual practice at all. What are you on about?

Because a lot of intimate procedures occur on wards too - bed baths, toileting, giving enemas, catheterising patients. All.part of normal nursing care but all intimate. Why wouldn't patients want same sex care for that too?

GrinitchSpinach · 24/11/2019 20:27

This guy had a good reputation in SE London, up until his arrest for molesting patients:

www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/gynaecologist-who-groped-his-patients-is-jailed-for-eight-years-a3305596.html%3famp

I’ve had some wonderful male HCPs, but if any woman doesn’t feel comfortable risking the above scenario (which is a risk coming nearly exclusively from the XY population), it is her absolute right to refuse consent to that risk.

MIdgebabe · 24/11/2019 20:27

Hooves, there is clearly a balance to be struck. Sex segregation of everything would be , I think, counter productive. Sex segregation should only be acceptable where it's totally necessary, and necessary I think means ensuring that women can fully participate in society.

From memory, that's why ladies toilets were"invented" . Someone realised that lack of loos stopped women going out.

So, getting women into smear tests is hard enough as it is. Numbers would drop significantly if women would not feel safe. Not a good idea. Having a blood test and general nursing, yes some women will still find a male nurse very difficult, but most abused women would be able to cope, although perhaps with a friend around.

It's about balance, not extremes

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/11/2019 20:28

Well obviously if a female requests that a male nurse doesn't perform intimate care procedures on a ward I'm sure that's accommodated, on a daily basis in hospitals throughout the UK. This is the norm. The status quo. Confused

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 24/11/2019 20:30

Im not talking about taking blood though. I'm talking about intimate procedures which are occurring every day on every ward.

FloralBunting · 24/11/2019 20:31

That's a hell of a derail. Blimey.

Anyway, yes, the issue at hand is that the NHS, as currently set up, allows for everyone to be seen by a HCP of their own sex. In most cases this is a simple request, and while it is extremely important for specific reasons for some women who have experienced violence or have other objections, no one has to explain themselves. The request is valid, and a woman's consent is a big red line no one should cross.

What this thread is about is Anti-woman transactivists working to undermine this reasonable accommodation, by twisting it so that women are forced to accept a male person as a woman.

It doesn't matter if you don't personally care, or if you don't understand about this particular accommodation in the first place; that's not the topic of the thread.

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/11/2019 20:32

Somehow male and female nurses still seem to manage ok under the current system without feeling discriminated against when a patient says 'I want a same sex hcp for this please'. And somehow we've managed so far in society to cope with some women being fine with male/female/trans/NB anyone for all procedures and situations and some women wanting a same sex person.

Without having to make everything all one way or all the other. Why can not this every day varied accommodation continue and respect the needs of those who want this? Because that's all that's being asked for.

Dinosauratemydaffodils · 24/11/2019 20:33

If a doctor wants to study for years, incur massive debts and pretend to be female to have a peep at my monkey, whatevs. But I don’t think going through that level of judgement, ridicule and discrimination is the motivator for the majority of transgender people. Do we need to vet gay born-female lesbian HCPs out of intimate examinations too? Going by this logic they will find it equally titillating, no? (And no, I do not believe that).

It's not about thinking they are getting a kick out of it, it's because their presence may be triggering for me...why can't you understnad that. It's why I was absolutely fine with the lesbian OB who delivered my 2nd child and almost put my foot through the adam's apple of the lovely male OB who delivered my 1st. Both were professional and kind, one triggered my ptsd, one did not.

It's not hard to understand. Certain types of bodies regardless of how they identity induce a fight or flight response especially if say viewed through my legs. Others do not.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 24/11/2019 20:33

Well obviously if a female requests that a male nurse doesn't perform intimate care procedures on a ward I'm sure that's accommodated, on a daily basis in hospitals throughout the UK. This is the norm. The status quo.

I think it would very much depend on staffing levels and who is available at the time plus on male wards there often isn't a choice so maybe this is something that should be looked at. Female only staff on female wards, male only staff on male wards.

Kantastic · 24/11/2019 20:34

Because a lot of intimate procedures occur on wards too - bed baths, toileting, giving enemas, catheterising patients. All.part of normal nursing care but all intimate. Why wouldn't patients want same sex care for that too?

Don't want to engage with the derail but I am wondering about this. I thought the rule was that male nurses don't do this stuff for female patients without a female chaperone. Which in practice usually means that female nurses do it for female patients. Certainly with intimate care work outside of the hospital context male carers do not care for female patients alone.

It's important that this status quo is maintained and that transwoman nurses/carers are not counted as female for the purpose of any kind of of intimate care.

BadgertheBodger · 24/11/2019 20:34

Forkfun this issue, and experimenting on children are the hills I will die on. I swear to god. I am lucky enough not to ever have been assaulted, or raped, or even have had too many terrible experiences with men. I will fight to the fucking end to maintain the boundaries for ALL women.

I am sorry for anyone who has had to undergo invasive procedures for any reason. I’ve had them myself. It’s really shit to have to undergo a painful, invasive procedure, especially when you’re waiting to hear if there’s something terribly wrong.

But fucking hell. Can you not understand that having to undergo a painful, invasive procedure from a HCP of the opposite sex when you’re traumatised, against it for religious reasons or even if, yes even if, you just fucking said no you want a same sex HCP would be appalling?

The issue here is that if a woman asks for a same-sex HCP to perform a procedure they will now be considered a hateful bigot if someone of the opposite sex turns up identifying as the same sex. Not only this, they will be gaslit and bullied to accept the opposite-sex HCP as someone who actually is the same sex. To avoid any issues with clarity here, as there seem to be some very challenged thinkers;

Woman needs to have cervical screening, where a speculum is inserted into her and a scrape of cells taken for analysis
Woman requests a woman, just as she has always been entitled to do
A trans woman turns up. Again, for avoidance of doubt, trans women are born male and mostly retain their penises.
The woman is uncomfortable and confused, and repeats her request for a woman.
The trans woman throws a tantrum and tells the woman she ought to accept the procedure because the trans woman is exactly the same as her.
The NHS trust classes the woman patient as a bigot and god knows where it goes from there.

This scenario is bad enough. Now, if it becomes legal to self-id as the opposite sex, Dave the rapey sexual predator can just say his name is Davina and lo, hey presto! The NHS trust start booking him appointments to carry out cervical screenings. (Sigh. Yes. Obviously Dave/Davina would need to be qualified to do so). Yay! Dave/Davina now has access to unchaperoned, unclothed women. I need to make the point here that Dave the rapist is not necessarily trans. He may well just be a fucking rapey chancer who sees that the current self-ID debacle presents him with an opportunity to hurt someone.

Sexual predators always have and always will go to great lengths to access victims. Thank fucking Christ there are enough of us to make a noise about this. The level of idiot displayed by some posters takes my breath away. You do not get to set other people’s boundaries, nor do you have the right to trample them down in the name of Woke.

I fully expect this to be deleted but I am
SO fucked off by this gaslighting rapey bollocks that women should just budge over and be kind and fuck it don’t worry that Davina has his hand in your monkey noo vag because there’s no way he would go to all those lengths and anyway, resources. Argh.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 24/11/2019 20:35

Every other bastard gets to self define every single thing about themselves. Well I am ShesDressedInBlackAgain and I want a woman for smears, mammograms, breast exams, vulval exams and a whole host of other shit I don't know about yet but when you explain the procedure I'll let you know. And so does my mother and so does my dd. And my dh wants a bloke for his prostate exam and anything else to do with his arse and dangly bits. We're not fucking children (except for dd), we're not fucking stupid, we're not fucking odd, we're 90% of the fucking population and you can't just gaslight us into accepting your regressive homophobic, rapey bullshit.

I am BuzzShitbagBobbly and I stand with ShesDressedInBlackAgain

Swipe left for the next trending thread