Only consenting to receiving medical treatment from a female is not acceptable

[Siameasy]

mobile.twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1198215833006362630

One NHS trust says it’s unacceptable for women to say they only consent to medical treatment from “natal females”. I find this completely outrageous and couldn’t find a thread on it already. Bloody hell!

But I don’t think going through that level of judgement, ridicule and discrimination is the motivator for the majority of transgender people.

Well, they won't mind being excluded from certain jobs then, will they?

Have women been raped by male to female transgender HCPs?

If anyone wants to ask for same sex, natal same sex as is quoted higher up in thread, go for it.

But I can respect your viewpoint at the same time as not agreeing with it - why can’t you afford me the same courtesy? I’m not anti anything or phobic anything (lie - I can’t bear spiders and heart attacks - one may hurt me and the other already has, a lot)

My view on what gender the chap and lady doing a brutal echocardiogram to see if they’d blown an artery was really a non-thing. And yes, my boobs were out to about 8 people wandering around. Nothing like nearly dying to make you grateful for whoever or whatever or whyever is fixing you and saving your life.

Not a fun thread if you can’t tolerate views that differ to your own, so you throw accusations.

Bunny:I disagree with any intolerant views of anyone, regardless of their background or what they ascribe it to.

Bunny:I’m assuming tolerance goes all ways?

You keep using that word... and if I don't think it means what you think it means, which of us gets to define it? Perhaps you need to learn to be "tolerant" of "intolerant views" and respect women's right to set our own boundaries even if you think our boundaries are wrong.

If you do already respect that right, there is no more to be said. Thank you for being the 23rd username on this thread to inform us that you don't care who your treatment provider is as long as they're qualified. Number 25 will be entered into a prize draw to win an iPhone!

Well, they won't mind being excluded from certain jobs then, will they?

What areas would you exclude them from working in?

I afford transgender people the same as I do hetero, gay, any of the above

Why are you equating transgenderism with sexual orientation? They are two completely different things.

My point was is why on earth should any hcp be interested in what you’ve got!

It doesn't matter whether they're interested or not. What matters is the comfort, dignity and safety of their patient, and preserving the right of those patients to request a HCP of whichever sex they feel most comfortable with, with confidence that an actual person of that actual sex will turn up to conduct the appointment - not someone who wishes really really hard they were something they're not and gets the hurty feelz if someone points out facts.

Why are some people so wilfully determined not to grasp this?

Just for avoidance of doubt - this 'Why would anyone be interested in my cunt when it isn't young and lovely' shtick - you know that's a classic rape myth don't you?

Babies get sexually assaulted, women in their nineties get sexually assaulted. This whole idea that women have control over sexual assault by being somehow outside the conventions of sexual attractiveness is a total fucking rape myth.

But I can respect your viewpoint at the same time as not agreeing with it - why can’t you afford me the same courtesy?

Because you are not respecting others' viewpoints or even taking them on board, instead using puerile sexual references and tangents about other branches of medicine to minimise and sneer at other women's need and right to be examined by someone of the same natal sex, not gender, but sex.

if anyone wants to ask for same sex, natal same sex as is quoted higher up in thread, go for it

We will - as countless women and men do every day in the NHS. But we won't be given it. And that is what this thread is about.

Omg, this is unbelievable! I’m not equating anything with fucking anything!

I’ve said I respect the views of those who don’t like this, but I don’t agree. I’m sorry that sits uncomfortably, and I’m sorry you feel the need to ascribe pretty offensive accusations to me. You don’t know me, you don’t know my own sexual orientation (and looking at my old posts is exactly that - I don’t necessarily share the whole ‘me’ online).

You’re name calling because you think my not agreeing undermines your stance - it doesn’t. There’s no right, not for everyone. There’s your opinion and there’s mine.

I thought I’d share my view as I’ve seen more HCP since April than I ever wanted to. Tomorrow I will be told the suspected heart failure is confirmed. I’m 52. I really did not come here to get jumped on.

Not cool.

Adrian Harrop on Twitter (I’m not a member) is onto the topic and appears not to get it either. Predictably and I expect intentionally missing the point entirely.

why on earth should any hcp be interested in what you’ve got!

There is no limit to what some men will do to gain sexual access to their preferred victims. Joel Davis founded an anti-rape charity to create a smokescreen for his abuse of children. Hundreds of priests went through seminary and ordination to gain access to children. Jimmy Savile set up kid's TV programmes to gain access to teen girls. Men will risk career, liberty, marriage, and their own lives to get sexual access to their preferred victims.

Training as a doctor or nurse and getting paid to have access to his preferred victims is a molester's dream come true. That's why some HCPs are very interested in what you've got, and they won't stop at looking.

Baring my chest for a heart function test is not the same as having my vagina invaded with a speculum to collect cervical cell samples. When I had an EKG a few year's back, I still had my trousers on. The boys who sexually assaulted me didn't attack my breasts, but my vulva.

And I was date raped at age 24.

But I didn’t think every man was like that. And I still don’t.

And the me-rail continues . . .

What matters is the comfort, dignity and safety of their patient, and preserving the right of those patients to request a HCP of whichever sex they feel most comfortable with

This. It's not hard.

The whole 'there's no risk from TW' thing is a total red herring, women are asking for female hcps, not males. You could send Father Christmas or St Paul and they'd still say no, because they have reasons for not wanting this done by a biological male. There will be plenty of women who won't care, honestly, if their hcp for intimate care is male, female, NB, TW, or anything else. There will be some who require a female.

Those women should not be forced to face a biological male in the shared illusion that they are not a biological male, in order to protect the feelings and identity choices of that biological male at whatever cost to the female.

And ffs, any hcp who doesn't put the needs, comfort and best interests of their patient first, meet their needs and be the first to say 'I'll find you the right person to do this', because of things like patient trust and patient care, shouldn't be doing the fucking job anyway. Patients aren't there to take care of the fucking hcps.

Tomorrow I will be told the suspected heart failure is confirmed.

You have my sympathy about your heart condition. This thread is not about echos though, it is about mammograms, which are a very different and painful examination involving crushing the breasts between glass plates, and about pelvic exams, which are painful and invasive because of the speculum. Please don't conflate the infliction of pain in intimate parts of the body, parts that are the target of sex attacks for many of us, with having your chest ultrasounded.

Bunny. I am sorry that you are not well. I hope you get good news.

You can't stumble into a debate, say your piece and not expect to have it challenged. That is not how this forum works. And, with respect, I don't think you understand this debate. Or why your posts have made people cross. You are trotting out really tired ideas - not all men are like that/how is this different to lesbians/I'm o.k. with this so everyone else should be. These ideas get short shrift here because they are anti-feminist and betray a lack of understanding.

If you wanted to you could read around this topic and maybe learn about feminism and how it relates to genderism and see why people have reacted so negatively to your posting. Lots of people have come here and done just that. If I were you I would do that. Particularly since you have said you are not well and the debate seems to be stressing you.

But you will get push back on those ideas here.

Pombear Just copying your earlier brilliant post so it doesn’t get lost in the middle of the current derail.
With organisations wilfully collaborating with hateful rhetoric, it’s going to take women taking them to court left right and centre to stop the idiocy.

Here goes:

So, hang on. BSUH's guidance heavily thanks one Rowan Davis, of MindOut Brighton.

www.bsuh.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/10/Trans-Guidelines-August-2019.pdf
p1 6Thank you to Rowan Davis of MindOut Brighton for providing comprehensive input and feedback to inform this update, as well as to Stonewall for reviewing and suggesting improvements

Rowan Davis, the trans advocacy worker at MindOut, a Brighton mental health service run by and for lesbians, gay, bisexual, trans, and queer people.

I thought I recognised that name (waves to Rowan - you've been namechecked on Mumsnet before, haven't you Rowan. For your 'how to deal with TERFs slideshow to NUS Women 18, hmm?)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3222263-Slide-show-on-How-to-Deal-with-TERFs
The slide show has been removed, but you can get a sense of its content from this thread from last year.

Here's Rowan
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsZP1hdA2jM

I'd rather not get a strike, so am posting much of this without further comment!

This looks very much like the same Rowan. Who is now working with Brighton Hospital to inform them as to how women like Clare B Dimyon will be dealt with, should she write a letter that Rowan doesn't like.

So I see Rowan's still 'dealing with TERFs', just in a more formal capacity now.

Well done Rowan.

If you happen to read this thread, and listen to many of the women on it, I hope you're very proud.

The NHS already lets you choose to have a female to do intimate examinations. It isn't new. What's new is that the NHS can now relabel a male HCP as a woman and the patient is supposed to play along. If the patient does not want to play along and demands an actual female then the patient is treated as being a bigot. That's utterly bonkers.

But I didn’t think every man was like that. And I still don’t.

Irrelevant. I don't think that every man is like that and it's a straw man argument to imply that I do. Some men are like that and they are attracted to jobs where they get access to victims. Only a male, a rape weapon-haver penis-haver, can make me pregnant, and that matters a lot in my risk assessment of whether someone is safe to be around when I am naked from the waist down on an examination couch. Many more sexual assailants are male than female, and that also matters in my risk assessment of whether someone is safe to be around when I am naked from the waist-down on an examination couch.

Well, they won't mind being excluded from certain jobs then, will they?

What areas would you exclude them from working in?

Seriously?

Obviously, as repeatedly discussed on this thread, the specific intimate care situations where a female person has asked for a female hcp.

Or as another example, where a female who has been arrested needs to be searched, and this is supposed to be done by a female officer.

There are some boundaries for some people around sex that people's needs and preferences around their identity cannot cross.

This thread is not about echos though, it is about mammograms, which are a very different and painful examination involving crushing the breasts between glass plates, and about pelvic exams, which are painful and invasive because of the speculum. Please don't conflate the infliction of pain in intimate parts of the body, parts that are the target of sex attacks for many of us, with having your chest ultrasounded.

You're doing what you are accusing others of doing - being dismissive. I've had mammograms and they weren't painful. You might find them so but not everyone does.

And an echo isn't "just having your chest ultrasounded". Your breasts are moved around, out if the way and in fact handled much more than during a mammogram where I was asked to position myself.

Obviously, as repeatedly discussed on this thread, the specific intimate care situations where a female person has asked for a female hcp.

So that would include ward based nursing too? Maybe we should staff all wards with same sex staff?

The echo was way more painful than a mammogram, or even the mammogram guided punch biopsies. 20 mins of them shoving my flesh into my ribs to get views all round the heart. Had a huge bruise all over one boob and a bloody lump that was necrosed tissue from the bleeding caused by the scan! And the. Had to have a bloody mammogram to make sure that was all it was!!

But it’s ‘just an ultrasound’

But nvm.

It appears that some men are actively seeking positions within the NHS to decimate sex based rights for women.
This is what we need to be asking questions about - why a publicly funded body sees fit to employ people determined to obliterate the rights of half of the population? Why they enable men who call women TERFs to be instrumental in how women are treated. They need to be held to account.

Bloody hell GetBusy I had missed PomBear's key post.

My rights are not Rowan's to give away, no Tara's, nor anybidy advising the NHS who does not represent women like me.