so, tell me, how many trans women have died in the UK last year.

[artisanparsnips]

I'm trying not to have an argument on Twitter, so here's the tweet:

*The thing that always blows me away about the gender critical/terfs is how callous they are. Yes, it is theoretically possible that cis-gender men could use self-id into women’s bathrooms

But we know that trans women are already dying. Why doesn’t these women’s suffering matter?*

Which is part of a longer thread here (don't bother, it's very self-absorbed)
twitter.com/TheGraceK/status/1195416651560312832

My immediate and very basic research suggests that one trans woman was murdered in the UK in 2018, while approx 129 women died from domestic violence. God alone knows how many others were murdered.

But its fine to increase women's risk, because - well actually, i don't know why the fuck it is.

Here's channel 4 fact-checking the trans murder rate,and finding it lower than average.

Coda: trans murder in America is much worse, but that's not here.

and the TW murdered there I'm told, are prostitutes, which is a very high risk status

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

5th rule of misogyny: Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

More fit, probably, but I can't be bothered to c&p.

There's the question how many trans people were murdered in the UK last year and then the question how many trans people were murdered in the UK last year because they were trans.

There have been 9 Transwomen murdered in the UK since 2008 and in not a single case was the fact they were trans the motive behind the killing.

I lifted this from a MN thread a year or so ago which details the first 8 murders:

“
According to this source transrespect.org/en/map/trans-murder-monitoring/, 8 transgender people have been murdered in the UK since 2008

Their list (taken from various PDFs on their site):

2015
Vikki Thompson - not murder but accidental death, initially reported as suicide www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/19/jury-returns-verdict-on-transgender-woman-found-dead-in-male-prison

Vanessa Santillan - killed by husband because of sex work www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34591733

2013
Jacqueline Cowdrey - found NOT to have been murdered www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-26145984

2012
Chrissie Azzopardi - killed over drug debts www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/18/chrissie-azzopardi-murder-life-sentence

2011
Lionel/Suzie Morl - described as transvestite, murdered by two Big Issue sellers (male & female) to live off his disability benefits www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/guilty-couple-who-killed-transvestite-689598

2010
Sonia/David Burgess gender fluid lawyer killed by a gender fluid/trans client www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16305570

2009
Andrea Waddell
www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/andrea-waddell-strangled-client-4226743 - sex worker killed by customer. Customer claimed not to know Waddell was transsexual. "During the trial, jurors were asked to consider whether McMillan killed her after discovering she was transgender, or because she was unable to perform sexually for him because of physical ailments after illnesses including fibromyalgia."

Destiny Lauren sex worker - killed by customer www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/life-sentence-for-killer-of-transsexual-prostitute-destiny-lauren-1-680308 Customer had previously sought the services of transsexual prostitutes going by the names of "Fransexual" and "VickisDomain"

So in summary, not 8 murders but 6, of which:

3 were sex workers killed because of their sex work
2 were killed for financial reasons
1 was killed by another transgender person

"A total of 152 UK sex workers have been murdered since 1990. According to the charity National Ugly Mugs, 85% of street prostitutes have experienced violence and only 25% of victims are willing to report crimes to the police."

news.sky.com/story/sex-workers-still-vulnerable-10-years-after-ipswich-murders-10679614

There were around 571 homicides in the last year in England & Wales, that's approximately 1 per 100,000 people.

Thus over the 9 years 2008 to 2016, given six homicides, that implies a transgender murder rate of 0.67 per year, assuming transgender people are as likely to be killed as the rest of the country. That would suggest that there are only 67,000 transgender people in England & Wales.

However, the LOWEST estimate for transgender people is 0.1% (so around 57,000), and GIRES says it is 0.2% at the very minimum (so around 114,000).

Obviously given the tiny numbers you can't be too specific with these statistics, we aren't taking about a population (of murdered trans people) so much as vanishingly rare cases.

With regard to sex work, there are apparently around 72,800 sex workers in the UK of which 4% (approx 2900 are transgender). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom#Extent

Given the overall sex worker murder rate of ~6 per year, that implies 1 in every 12,000 sex workers will be murdered in any given year. Therefore given the 2900*9 = 26,100 transgender sex worker years in the period under study, we'd expect 26100/12000 = 2.175 murders of transgender sex workers. The total of 3 is very slightly above average in that respect, however statistically it's not even remotely significant (5 would be significant at the 95% confidence interval). I am not 100% clear if the case of Vanessa Santillan is included within the figures, as Santillan was murdered not by a client, but a jealous husband.

Also note that in general 1 in 780 people are sex workers (and sex workers have a homicide rate 8 times higher than the general population) but as many as 1 in 20 transgender people may be sex workers, so there will be a higher rate of murder.

Moreover, all of the murderers were biologically male (and indeed most transgender people are male). The male murder rate is around 75% higher than the female murder rate in the country as a whole.”

Why don't we have 'like' on this site Cavemum.

Yes, it is theoretically possible that cis-gender men could use self-id into women’s bathrooms

But we know that trans women are already dying. Why doesn’t these women’s suffering matter?

You know what? I’ve always struggled to understand what a straw man argument is. I’ve googled but I’ve never felt confident enough to correctly identify one.

Apart from today. This is one of the most blatant, towering straw men I’ve ever seen

trans murder in America is much worse, but that's not here

It isn't you know.

If a male human being wishes to reduce his statistical chance of being murdered 'identifying' as a woman is a pretty good move on both sides of the Atlantic.

Don't conflate the US with America. The favelas of South America distort the stats. Being a trans prostitute in S America is a risky business. Still not as risky as being a female prostitute in S America but when did facts ever get in the way.

Standing ovation for @CaveMum

Some Latin American countries have phenomenally high murder rates generally.

I can't say as I've seen any evidence that trans individuals are at particularly high risk for their given demographic/professions there.

I was, in fairness, taking the OP's America to mean the US however which may not have been her intention.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3064926-Number-of-trans-people-who-are-murderers-is-greater-than-the-number-of-trans-people-who-are-murder-victims-in-UK-Title-amended-by-MNHQ

If the issue is safety then third spaces are an immediate, practical solution that meets everyone's needs.

As soon as this is mooted, it becomes immediately apparent that safety isn't the issue at all.

Even in the favelas of Brazil, the murder rate of transwomen is several times less than that of other men.

Thank you Cavemum

I just read that Twitter thread. My head hurts. It's just so badly thought through. This person clearly thinks she's right - but she's so wrong.

From vegan activism i've learned that sadly numbers and facts often don't work in convincing people of my argument. There is a strategy of asking non-combative questions to let the person you are talking to reach their own conclusion. It's effective in person, but probably not on twitter.

The numbers and facts are great for other people who are reading though.

I was genuinely shocked when i found out the "trans murder" myth was bullshit and they're at less risk of being murdered than other demographics.

And then shocked again when I found out it's not even true in the States! People on the sidelines neeed to know they're being fed a pack of lies, even though it doesn't influence the true believers.

@allmywhat oh, absolutely, I agree. I'm very much persuaded by facts. I'm just always surprised by how many people are not. I think it's useful to have multiple strategies.

The trans murder victim stats are similar to the trans suicide stats touted around.

Here is something from the states, Warren read out the names of the victims who were trans who were murdered this year and h thy err was a powerful FB lost which gave stats on how many women have been murdered by comparison.

145 trans people have been murdered in the states since 2013, 24 a year, there have been 22 murders of trans people in 2019 so far. You can imagine what the numbers are for American children, women and men in that same period.

www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-transgender-community-in-2019

Just dig this out

I’ve had this argument online
It’s a “stop talking” trick to appeal to the female urge to feel guilty
I was told off for questioning it and bringing up women’s rate of being killed
Even if they were dying it’s not through not being allowed in the ladies’

How many transwomen have died due to complications due to botched surgery, related mental health issues to that or simple transition regret or premature death long term use of cross sex hormones?

I suspect we have no idea about this because no one has even bothered to follow up on the long term health of transwomen compared to the general population.

But you know... Its all about how evil women are.

That thread. That thread.

Just

That thread.

Can’t take the credit for that epic post, I lifted it from a MN thread about a year ago as I thought it needed to be saved in case the deletion fairy got hold of it. It’s been very useful over the intervening 12 months whenever a TRA On Twitter starts yelling the odds about the “thousands” of murdered Transwomen who are the Most Vulnerable People Ever™️

@CaveMum thanks for digging that post out, it’s really useful. Obviously even one murder is one too many for any group we are talking about, but I’m surprised it’s so low given the TRA pushing the message than trans people are more at risk. I wonder how many TRAs just listen to what is being said and don’t look into the details? I’d imagine quite a few.

Usually when I quote those stats at people their response is to deflect and say it doesn’t take into account all the assaults and various other hate crimes directed at trans people.

I try to point out that we can only use the statistics available to us and that statistics show that women are murdered at a far higher rate than trans people, but funnily enough they usually block me at that point 😜