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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

so, tell me, how many trans women have died in the UK last year.

52 replies

artisanparsnips · 18/11/2019 18:13

I'm trying not to have an argument on Twitter, so here's the tweet:

*The thing that always blows me away about the gender critical/terfs is how callous they are. Yes, it is theoretically possible that cis-gender men could use self-id into women’s bathrooms

But we know that trans women are already dying. Why doesn’t these women’s suffering matter?*

Which is part of a longer thread here (don't bother, it's very self-absorbed)
twitter.com/TheGraceK/status/1195416651560312832

My immediate and very basic research suggests that one trans woman was murdered in the UK in 2018, while approx 129 women died from domestic violence. God alone knows how many others were murdered.

But its fine to increase women's risk, because - well actually, i don't know why the fuck it is.

Here's channel 4 fact-checking the trans murder rate,and finding it lower than average.

Coda: trans murder in America is much worse, but that's not here.

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 20/11/2019 16:06

Well...

The TDoR 2019 update has revealed a total of 331 cases of reported killings of trans and gender-diverse people between 1 October 2018 and 30 September 2019. The majority of the murders occurred in Brazil (130), Mexico (63), and the United States (30), adding up to a total of 3314 reported cases in 74 countries worldwide between 1st of January 2008 and 30th of September 2019.

331 in 12 years in 74 countries is 3.73
4 a year per country for the last 11-12 years.

Obviously any murder is awful but now want to see a breakdown of those figures and honestly I'd like to see a day of remembrance for victims of domestic violence.

And the US number is up from last months reported number of trans murders.

RoyalCorgi · 20/11/2019 16:27

a total of 331 cases of reported killings of trans and gender-diverse people between 1 October 2018 and 30 September 2019

Globally, 464,000 people were murdered last year.

If we assume that trans people make up 1% of the global population, you'd expect 4,600 of them to be murdered. If they only make up 0.5%, then you'd expect 2,300 of them to be murdered.

Looked at that way, 331 seems a remarkably low figure.

artisanparsnips · 20/11/2019 16:32

Except you forget one important thing. They're much, much more important than any women.

(incidentally, it's really hard to find stats for violence and murder disaggregated by sex. Perhaps people men don't want to know the answer.

OP posts:
HDDD · 20/11/2019 16:39

Tell you what I'd like to see on the page...who murdered them, was it men? Why women are getting blamed is beyond me.

OhHolyJesus · 20/11/2019 16:47

I'd like to see what circumstances where they murdered in, for example previous stats I've read on the UK figures show about half of the victims were prostitutes. I'd like to see the trans-prostitutes-victims for Thailand and I'd like to read more about the US figures given.

It's a sweeping stat that may well be true but without a substantiating source I'm not going to trust it.

artisanparsnips · 20/11/2019 18:25

@HDDD Yet another statistic which is bafflingly hard to extract.

OP posts:
ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 20/11/2019 21:31

Looked at that way, 331 seems a remarkably low figure.

Goodness. I knew trans people were statistically less likely to be murdered but not a whole order of magnitude less likely.

AutumnRose1 · 20/11/2019 21:41

I honestly thought the answer to the UK figure would be zero.

OhHolyJesus · 20/11/2019 22:04

According to these figures, there was one trans person murdered in the UK in that time, and a total of nine trans people were murdered in the UK between 2008 and 2017. That’s an average rate of one victim per year.
A back-of-envelope calculation based on this data would suggest that the average trans person has a one-in-200,000 to one-in-500,000 chance of being murdered in the UK over the course of a year.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

The average adult in UK has a 1 in 100,000 chance of being murdered.

2018
Naomi Hersi, 36 was killed by Jesse MaxDonald, 25 after a 3 day 'sexual encounter'
Any Griffiths, 51 was killed by Martin/Michael Saberi, 53

NotDavidTennant · 20/11/2019 23:18

If we assume that trans people make up 1% of the global population, you'd expect 4,600 of them to be murdered. If they only make up 0.5%, then you'd expect 2,300 of them to be murdered.

Why would you assume 1% though? That would imply that there are over 650,000 trans people in the UK alone. That must be out by at least an order of magnitude.

horseshit · 20/11/2019 23:41

Government estimate according to this is 200,000 - 500,000

This thread is incredibly helpful because people keep repeating the “you’re killing us” nonsense, so thank you all!

ScapaFlo · 20/11/2019 23:50

Blimey they make a lot of noise for so few people

Creepster · 20/11/2019 23:58

trans murder in America is much worse, but that's not here
The transgender murder rate is much lower than that of men or women in the US. It is Black males who have the astronomical murder ate in the US.

so, tell me, how many trans women have died in the UK last year.
Kantastic · 21/11/2019 00:11

I try to point out that we can only use the statistics available to us and that statistics show that women are murdered at a far higher rate than trans people,

You could also point out that criminologists use murder as a benchmark when comparing crime rates, because murder is the only crime statistic that isn't distorted by how crime is reported.

For example, you can't compare "hate crimes" committed against women with "hate crimes" committed against trans people when no one is even counting hate crimes committed against women.

(Meanwhile, of course, cops are creating information campaigns encouraging trans people to report mean Tweets if they're offended by them.)

Ereshkigal · 21/11/2019 05:45

Why would you assume 1% though? That would imply that there are over 650,000 trans people in the UK alone. That must be out by at least an order of magnitude.

Because that was the figure given by a trans organisation as evidence to the Maria Miller Trans Equality Inquiry.

merrymouse · 21/11/2019 08:38

But we know that trans women are already dying. Why doesn’t these women’s suffering matter

Confused are they dying because they are being murdered by men? Is everyone at risk of being murdered by a man going to be allowed into the women's loos? How is that going to work when the people most likely to murdered by men are men?

CaveMum · 21/11/2019 11:04

I saw this comment elsewhere on t’interweb and thought it would be useful to this discussion:

“I did a thread about this last year and spent hours trawling through names on the worldwide list and finding the corresponding news reports.

What I found was that any trans death other than from natural causes is listed regardless of whether there was a transphobic element to the death or not - and there were some very dubious inclusions.

Firstly, the stats from central America greatly impact the whole narrative because murder rates are shocking in countries like Brazil ( I think it was 67,000 for the year I looked at and there maybe 280 trans deaths but women were killed at rate of 16 per week ) which has extreme poverty, drugs, drug wars and a high overall level of criminality.

Secondly, the number of transwomen involved in prostitution also has a distorting effect on figures from any country because prostitution is a risky business for anyone involved - women, transwomen, men, and boys and girls.

My time consuming trawling uncovered self administered drug overdoses, transwomen murdering other transwomen, random drive by shootings, street brawls, prostitute murders by customers and motiveless murders .... I found little evidence of transphobic hate crimes or even transphobia.

The recent “trans hate epidemic” in the USA of 18 transwomen killed this year piqued my interest. I obtained as much information as possible by going through all published accounts of the murders and subsequent investigations and found that in 12 cases, suspects were awaiting trial and 6 had no suspects or indeed possible motives. One of the cases saw a TW accidentally shot when they intervened in a family domestic argument between Mum and Stepdad. Of the 12 where suspects were detained, there was 1 that I considered an element of transphobia MAY have been present given the reporting, but as no trial yet, all the relevant information has yet to be disclosed.

My research leads me to believe that the transphobic hate crime narrative we are presented with is far from the truth.

I cannot look into peoples hearts and minds and therefore it is possible that there may be underlying transphobia in crimes where it is not the main motive, but by and large, MOST murders of transwomen are NOT motivated by transphobia.

Unlike murders of women where intimate partners are often perpetrators this is not the case for transwomen and we also must take into account that prostitution brings heightened risks in terms of violence, susceptibility to drug use and associated risks.”

CaveMum · 21/11/2019 11:06

More detail here: My Twitter thread with correct numbers from last year is here threader.app/thread/1065256764940197890

Joyfullittlehippo · 21/11/2019 11:12

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Joyfullittlehippo · 21/11/2019 11:13

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RightOnTheEdge · 21/11/2019 11:33

North Yorkshire police HQ currently is flying a flag at the moment in for transgender rememberence. To honor all the victims of transgender murder and suicide.
They will also be taking a moment during the shift to remember and honor them.

It's really annoying because it says there are 180 comments but it's just blank when I try to read them. I'm really wondering what people are saying about it.

Birdsfoottrefoil · 21/11/2019 17:13

Having a trans remembrance day is a requirement to be a Stonewall Champion. I don’t think you need to do a gay, lesbian or any of the other letters remembrance day.

LangCleg · 23/11/2019 10:56

Karen Ingala Smith mentioned these statistics at the WPUK meeting last night.

In 2014-2018, the numbers are:

Female: 75% fewer homicide suspects than victims

Male: 10% more homicide suspects than victims

Trans males: 50% more homicide suspects than victims.

Figures are from here: kareningalasmith.com/2019/10/17/comparing-uk-homicide-perpetration-and-suspect-rates-for-male-female-and-trans-people-april-2007-march-2018/

Ereshkigal · 23/11/2019 11:00

Wow. I know in the trans case they are small numbers of both, but that's quite stark.

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