ROGD Parent Support

[iamright17]

This is a new thread for parents who are experiencing the phenomenon of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria in their tweens/ teens/ young adults.

Sadly we are being watched and our words taken out of context so please be careful what you say.

I want the UK and beyond to listen to parents. Even if it is deemed as anecdotal for now, it is important for someone to acknowledge our perspective. The trans narrative is trying to undermine our credibility.

I've been pondering over the Xmas period, whether it might be useful to look at some cult rescue/deprogramming information and see if any of it can be applied to some of the situations we find ourselves in. I have a number of leads in that regard, if others think it might be a helpful idea?

Poly

This is the best, clearest advice I have found:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=j3nnP7R-2Vo

It’s an amalgamation of the advice given by therapists Lisa Marchiano and Sasha Ayad, both of whom have lots of experience with ROGD.

The maker of the video (a mother of a ROGD daughter) has other videos on her channel.

We are following this advice, which is, in a nutshell, understand the feelings of gender dysphoria are sincere, but stay skeptical that transition is the way to resolve the feelings and most importantly, delay, delay delay! Tell your child that the changes they want are big and you need time to process them.

My 13 year old DstepD ‘came out’ via an email from school two months ago. So far we have managed to avoid any changes except for a hair cut (and that was only from mid-back to shoulders).

My DH is devastated, he was a shared custody single dad for 7 years and much of his own ‘identity’ is father-of-daughter. It’s heart breaking.

I attended the detransitioners event in MCR (videos are up now but sound quality is bad. A transcript is being made. Will find links in a second) and had the chance to speak to a couple of the young women who have reidentified with their sex. One said there was little her mum could’ve done to stop it, but being there and open when she changed her mind was crucial.
All the young women said they wished they had had gender non-conforming/butch lesbian role models (made me wish for a ‘rent a butch auntie’ scheme).

Video 1 is the healthcare professional panel

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xQKoFXXFVs4

Video 2 is reidentified young women (two other women spoke off camera too):

m.youtube.com/watch?v=stBt7_NTT3o

This is the twitter profile of one of the reidentified women (third from the left on the panel discussion). She’s well worth paying attention to, her story is very moving and she articulates it well:

twitter.com/sathananas

It’s my profound belief that it is the detransitioners who will bring this whole gender identity thing crashing down. Their testimony is incredibly powerful. I am full of the utmost admiration for them all.

Oh! Also! Some of the reidentified women had severely disordered eating prior to coming out as trans. This is something I have observed in DSD (it’s not actually effecting her health at this point but she definitely has some weird stuff around food). It’s only with hindsight that the women were able to see both the gender identity issues and the wasting disorders were stemming from the same root.

Something all ROGD parents should probably be aware of.

None of this has anything to do with me so apologies for butting in, but I think DuMondeB makes a very good point that as parents OUR identities are very much defined in relation to our children. I know the fact I am a mother to a daughter is a massive part of who I am- a daughter not a child- and what happens to our identities when we are told to accept everything about our children’s identities and affirm at all costs?

Sending support. I’m pretty certain I would have gone down the trans path as a teen had it been available, and so would my DD. We’ve discussed it. I’m concerned about a GD who is so like me it’s spooky. She’s only 8 so I hope the fad will disappear soon.

How do people feel about this link?
www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00332925.2017.1350804?src=recsys
I'm battling about binders with DD atm as it seems they contribute to moving on to a double mastectomy :( It's hard to find some really effective sports bras though.

Binders cause all kinds of physical damage and even pro trans sites warn of the problems (from the following link: helloclue.com/articles/cycle-a-z/chest-binding-tips-and-tricks-for-trans-men-nonbinary-and-genderfluid)

76-78% of people in studies reported skin/tissue problems, like tenderness, scarring, swelling, itching, infections
74-75% of people reported pain in chest, shoulders, back or abdomen
51-52% of people reported respiratory problems (like shortness of breath)
47-49% of people reported musculoskeletal symptoms, like postural changes, muscle wasting, or rib fractures (2,3)

If you were struggling with all these issues on a daily basis, then yes, double mastectomy will seem like a preferable option! Just not wearing a binder seems like the easier solution to me, but then, I’m not a teen struggling with gender issues

Thanks for the link to the Lisa Marchiano piece - will read it when I have time to pay it proper attention (she’s a good voice on ROGD issues and has been interviewed by Benjamin Boyce on his YouTube channel).

It's hard to find some really effective sports bras though.

I'm not saying this blithely because not everyone can afford this (particularly not when growing) but if possible get Rigby and Peller or similar to make them for your DD.

NB, they'd consent to making a sports bra but I have no idea about whether they've a policy on binders (and yes, those are a medical device that would be unlikely to get approval if submitted for this purpose).

www.rigbyandpeller.com/UK/Made_to_Measure.html

We flat out said no to a binder for DD- gave a summary of the physical damage outlined by DuMondeB. Easier said than done, I know and I do have a worry that once hoodies are not allowed in school after Easter (weather- too warm so students can only wear them from Oct-Easter break) that she will get one and sneak it to school. At the moment she doesn’t take off her hoodie at school because it helps hide them. At home she is fine going about in a T-shirt with bra on.

One of the hardest things for me so far was the change of name. Dd was named after my mum. She died when I was a teen, we had a great relationship and using her name for dd was originally DHs idea. We spent ages discussing names as a lot of couples do.

DD changed it by deed poll in collusion with workers at her youth group just after her 16th birthday. We didn’t know anything about it until it was final. They advised her and acted as witnesses. Not once did any of them think to mention this to us - either dd or the youth workers. I went to pick her up one night and they hurriedly pushed some paperwork out of sight and asked me to wait outside. It was her change of name deed. That really hurt. I was surprised how upset I was by it but it’s linked to identity. I have always identified as a mother of daughters and her name was part of that identity.

You tube videos later - thank you!

Our line is ‘nothing that causes, or has the potential to cause irreversible changes before the age of 18. Everything else to be negotiated on a case-by-case basis’.

Binders clearly have the potential to cause irreversible change (I have the graphic pictures saved that prove it) so are off the table.

Of course, there is always the danger that she might obtain one via other sources, so obviously we have to keep a close eye on her internet activity, friendships, post, laundry and room (although that kind of supervision is normal for all our children anyway. My eldest was wild aged 14/15 but is now 19 and more responsible).

@BlackberryViolet How sad, I'm sorry.
DD3 has kind or shortened her given name to something we call her anyhow, so that's not too bad.
Am kind of 'forgetting' to call her 'he' so am getting corrected by 2/3 of the other kids. Not sure we can afford R & P!
Any other suggestions for very supportive sports bras? She's a 34B so doesn't have too much to squash.

I freely admit we have been a bit free and easy with the internet access but I'm hoping she will share links and you tubers she is getting her information from so I can have a go at understanding what is going on inside her head.
She's very internet savvy and has managed to dodge parental controls we've set up but DH has done something with the router that restricts her wifi. She's had to come down from her room and negotiate for that to be reinstated. I've also pruned back her data allowance so the only unlimited access she has is the family computer in the living room.

Blackberry

I lost my mum to ovarian cancer 15 years ago when I was in my 20s. I absolutely feel your heartbreak at your daughter’s change of name. If only some of these teachers and youth leaders could think of the bigger picture. Your daughter could’ve moved her late grandma’s name to a middle name (in the US, for example, it’s acceptable for men to have a woman’s middle name, as a family tradition).

So sad to hear all these stories so just sending support to all the parents and your children while you wait and hope time will change their direction. I do think it’s outrageous that youth workers are able to influence in this way. It seems that “being trans “ is the only way young people can get recognition from others in support services. What about the necessary but ordinary mental health services looking at causes and other factors? Interesting about the post adoption links, when there is also a kind of legal fiction created... would be worth some proper research being done. Just hoping for good outcomes for everyone here eventually.

For sports bras Poly I can recommend H&M as a hopefully suitable, affordable 'flattening' type. They have some that are not obviously women's bras that look more athletic.

I haven't been through this like others have here so I can't offer any useful advice, I just hope you manage to find strength for yourself and your family, to negotiate this. It's a sign of the times with this ideology that going to the doctor or for therapy isn't necessarily the best course of action if all they will do is affirm, as others have noted, and create more distance between you.

The name isn't too much of a change at least and if you can manage to get her back into school without them treating her any differently (as it's a girls school are there even boys toilets?) you can begin to find a way forward. It must be heartbreaking for you, I'm not surprised you are crying a lot.

Here's some videos with Benjamin A Boyce and Sasha Ayad teen therapist that could be helpful.

Sasha Ayad –Identity, gender, adolescence and therapy:

Sasha Ayad - Identity and teen development:

Sasha Ayad - Parenting the Gender dysphoric child:

At the moment she doesn’t take off her hoodie at school because it helps hide them. At home she is fine going about in a T-shirt with bra on.

I've been struck recently by how much of trans identification is about how other people perceive the trans person, and how little is about their own internal identity.

Poly I have no real life experience but the sibling thing would alarm me. It’s not right for such young and inexperienced people to be encouraging others down a path they do not understand beyond the level of Twitter and which they themselves are not on. It’s ripe for alienation within the family to have a cheerleader internally mindlessly shouting slogans at you. There’s rebelling against parental norms which is right and proper to a degree and then there’s using someone vulnerable in the family to make these points against parents.

I dont want to make things worse for you but it seems to me your older children are promoting discord and dissatisfaction here. How you get them back on side I don’t know other than by saying that it’s your job as a parent to keep options open for as long as possible and that is not up for discussion.

It’s also your job as a parent to make sure your children don’t try to supplant you as the parental authority. I have seen this in a family I know well - controlling older child increasingly using younger children as their troops in a battle of wills against parents. Younger children made to feel important as they are for once in the sunshine glow of attention from beloved older sibling. Parents struggle to keep older sibling in their lane as a child like any other rather than another adult and quasi parent as they think they are.

oldcrone I think you and I may have stumbled across the same point - trans identity reflected back from others at school or from siblings.

Wrt binders, we had the same standpoint - no permanent body mods until age of majority to decide and fund that themselves. It was helpful to have a firm line.

Hi.im no expert but we do have a 16 year old who’s desisted, despite lots of affirmation of the previous position from other family members.
I think it’s very important to not allow euphemisms. Top surgery is double mastectomy, look at some pictures. Do ask if turning her vulva inside out will make her into a real boy. If faced with this again, I would limit access to reddit discord, tumblr etc, and time in their room. And I would absolutely not allow your 16 year old to insult you, or tell you how to parent. Mostly I got quite bored with it. It’s a ludicrous position and they know it, that’s why they go on the attack all the time. They will keep wanting to unmask your transphobia, but don’t engage with that,this is about them , not you, they need to be clear about what is possible and what is not. I would not allow any change of name. Bu5 I would. Also be very wary of giving them loads of attention for it. It’s quite thrilling to have everyone looking at you. I would just grey it all down. And don’t be afraid to say no, they are kids after all.Transgender trend is a fantastic resource, as is This. Don’t let them access your phone , tablet etc, you will be attacked for having Mumsnet.

I would just grey it all down

Absolutely.

Things I did not allow and did not engage in a discussion of after the first discussion, explaining my position, answering questions, and acknowledging that my position made child/ren angry:

Binders.
Name change within the home.
Change of pronouns within the home.
Blockers/opposite sex hormones.
Discussion of surgical options. Completely off the table as a minor.
Gender clinics

What I did/do allow:
gender experiementation - wearing clothes usually associated with the other gender, make-up/no make-up, short hair/long hair - any form of gender play. Came with a huge serve of 'look at all this arty men/butch women through history who have fucked with gender while remaining grounded in the reality of their sexed bodies'

Some gender neutral language. For example, introducing dd as 'my eldest' instead of 'my daughter'. Talking about 'your sib' instead of 'your brother'. Shortening names to less feminine form (for dd). Using pet names instead of given name all the time (ds).

Privacy in therapy (with someone I felt could be trusted not to rush things).

Access to internet (maybe with a very young teen, cutting off internet would help; I judged it would make our situation worse, turn me into the 'enemy'. I know where ds is getting his info from, and I know (and have communicated) the limits to that info. I would prefer to cut him off, but made a judgement call on that. I might regret it).

~

I have had some extremely open discussions with ds about the reality of transition, including the possibility of continuing mental health issues, sterility, sexual dysfunction, ill health, a vastly reduced dating pool. He found those discussions very distressing at the time, but wanted to have them. That was a while ago.

God it's tough. Hugs to all.