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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ru Paul's Drag Race FOI request?

299 replies

WineIsMyCarb · 15/11/2019 20:54

Given that the BBC does not allow 3rd party advertisers, is an FOI request the right way to go about finding out if the headline slot on BBC iPlayer for RuPaul's Drag Race is paid for? Have had wine, am cross. Sick of the fucking sight of him. (Follows previous thread about iplayer not having an algorithm and others' about drag being misogynistic in large parts).

OP posts:
hangonamo · 23/11/2019 17:30

Sigh. No, not arguing majority rules. The BBC does make decisions based on the success of its programmes though.

I guess you are deliberately misunderstanding, or maybe you are unable to cope with this not very difficult bit of logic. I don't think that people who find drag offensive are not in their right minds. I haven't said that. I said I think it's hard to argue that it is or should be universally disliked when lots of people like it.

You don't do your position any favours by not engaging properly with other points but never mind 🤷‍♀️

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 23/11/2019 17:38

Sigh

I don't think that people who find drag offensive are not in their right mind

In that case maybe you shouldn’t have said:

When lots of people like something, it's hard to argue that any sensible person (or person in their right mind) would find it offensive

maybe you are unable to cope with this not very difficult bit of logic, but if it’s not what you mean, maybe you shouldn’t say it?

Yes I know lots of people like drag race. As previously discussed, lots of people like lots of shit things.

The point is, is it possible to bring them to their senses? If so, how?

Justhadathought · 23/11/2019 17:53

My dds think it promotes tolerance and diversity and they like it
8

Sounds like your dd has swallowed the hype, maybe?

In what way it it inclusive? Why not have some drag kings, and why did Ru Paul say he did not want trans people to be part of it? He got some stick for that, didn't he?

Justhadathought · 23/11/2019 17:59

It's hard to argue, for example, that anyone in their right mind would find it offensive, when lots of people have liked it

Lots of people liked Jerry Springer, and Jeremy Kyle - before it was pulled. And there used to be a popular comedy called 'Love Thy Neighbour' in the 1970's - do you remember that?; and 'The Black & White Minstrel show' was very popular too. Whole families would sit down together to watch. Great fun!

Justhadathought · 23/11/2019 18:07

No, my argument is not that popular=good but that good viewing figures = another series and that it's hard to beat that with "but we find it offensive"

For the BBC that is less the case. The corporation has a duty to represent fairly, as well as respond to criticism.

The simple fact that the BBC has been pulled into 'wokeism' and is trying to reflect that in its commissioning practices; and has, so far, a blind eye for just how offensive much of drag is. Drag is central to gay male culture - we know that. But just being a gay man is no longer enough, to avoid scrutiny of behaviour and/or practice.

Justhadathought · 23/11/2019 18:10

If it was discussed on Woman's Hour then that's a neat defence to your complaint isn't it

The BBC knows that controversy is growing over many of its stances and practices - from many angles and on many fronts......so, yes, they tried to nip it in the bud, a little, by inviting four pro-drag voices, and one critical voice onto Woman's Hour. that won't make the issue go away, though.

Justhadathought · 23/11/2019 18:14

And that they might feel that the BBC belongs to them just as much as it belongs to you

Well that is what the BBC is hoping. Trouble is it will also end up alienating a lot of its loyal listeners and viewers, who just a few years ago would have argued passionately in its favour.

The issue here is not about personal tastes and preferences and about various different demographics - but about misogyny disguised as good entertainment.

Justhadathought · 23/11/2019 18:17

If you were to argue that, you would be saying that lots of people were not in their right mind

To be fair it was you who introduced the idea of 'not in their right mind'.

Many people go along with the customs and practices of the day - and don't really criticise or reflect much on them. People are guided and instructed by what is in their environment and considered to be 'normal' or 'natural'.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 24/11/2019 10:26

having thought about the exchange above over night, god I'm bad at spotting gaslighting. I suppose the good news is that it just makes me furious rather than doubt my judgement as intended.

'I don't think this, but I feel I have to let you know that other people will think you're not in your right mind if you're offended by drag. Its not my view you understand, I'm just trying to help you. I think it's important you know that complaining will be pointless and people will think you've got a screw lose. See how helpful I'm being?'

It was pretty much text book @hangonamo. Did you go on a BBC course?

ColaFreezePop · 24/11/2019 22:10

@BernardBlacksWineIceLolly no that's just the management style of many BBC managers. Like the NHS they have an issue with managers and senior people being bullies.

Justhadathought · 29/11/2019 16:38

I have just received a wholly inadequate response to my initial complaint:

"Thanks for contacting us about RuPaul’s Drag Race UK.
Drag as a cultural phenomenon dates back to Tudor times and has been established as a form of entertainment for many years. It has since become a mainstay of UK Christmas pantomime and has been absorbed into mainstream entertainment on UK television with notable performers such Danny LaRue, Paul O’Grady, Barry Humphries and, of course, RuPaul.For the past decade RuPaul's Drag Race has entertained fans around the world and has won four Emmy Awards doing so. We are excited to be able to bring the first ever UK show to BBC Three.

We recognise it is not for you but please be assured your views have been brought to the attention of the senior management".

I have escalated my complaint - as none of my specific points have been addressed at all. Obviously, there is very limited space available on the standard on-line complaint form - but here is my further response:

This is to further my complaint in light of the entirely inadequate response to my initial complaint ( above). None of my specific points were addressed. These were around the offensive use of demeaning words such as 'Slapper', 'Slag' and so on ( words which are used to demean women) - and the insinuation that female genitals are dirty and/or disgusting. Bear baiting and cockerel fighting were around in Tudor times too - but are now considered inappropriate. Likewise heterosexual men dressing up 'mincing' around, and using words such as 'faggot', 'girly boy' and 'poofter' - for the purposes of general entertainment would now, rightly, be considered offensive - even if presented, and highly popular, on our TVs as recently as the 1970's. Please address my specific points, because this issue is not one which is going to disappear any time soon. Just because drag has been a central part of gay male culture does not disguise the inherent misogyny of much of it. Showing repeated adverts on prime time terrestrial TV which depict ugly images of women as ' cows' is not something I want my granddaughter exposed to. Ru Paul has not been without controversy in the U.S either - with trans rights groups deeming it 'transphobic' and not at all inclusive. And the issue of misogynistic content is a discussion and a debate that is also going on in the U.S amongst both the black and white community - with comparisons to 'black face' being made

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 29/11/2019 16:43

cultural phenomenon So was the black and white minstrel show...

thefluffysideofgrey · 29/11/2019 17:47

Oooo matron!

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 29/11/2019 19:28

Showing repeated adverts on prime time terrestrial TV which depict ugly images of women as ' cows' is not something I want my granddaughter exposed to

Is that the drag queen (Baga Chips, I think it was?) who when they all had to dress up as something inspired from their hometown came as Birmingham bullring?
If so, FGS, aren't you reaching a little saying it's depicting women as cows? Confused
Or did you mean something else?
Because if you mean the Bullring you lose all credibility with your complaint as I'm sorry but you don't seem to know what you're talking about!

HandsOffMyRights · 29/11/2019 19:32

We know you are "excited" BBC. You've invested a shit load of public cash to pay for this and your boner is preventing you from acknowledging that many women find drag offensive.

theflushedzebra · 29/11/2019 20:23

Danny LaRue, Paul O’Grady, Barry Humphries

Yeah. Some of us were never that impressed by them either.

Justhadathought · 29/11/2019 23:03

If so, FGS, aren't you reaching a little saying it's depicting women as cows? confusedOr did you mean something else?
Because if you mean the Bullring you lose all credibility with your complaint as I'm sorry but you don't seem to know what you're talking about

Clearly lacking in a sense for nuance.........

A two minute slot before the Six o'clock news does not have time to educate people that the bull ring is a dated & rather hideous construction in Birmingham - it relies on imagery. The imagery and suggestion of women as 'cows' is an extremely well worn one. Even if you lack the feel for nuance and subtlety that goes with such supposed humour, most others don't.

Justhadathought · 23/12/2019 19:22

I thought I'd bump this thread - seeing that there is now another on the same issue.......Obviously though the new thread also deals with freedom of speech issues and who gets to decide what is up for debate or not. Still!

Justhadathought · 07/02/2020 14:15

Here is the latest response to my initial complaint about the offensive portrayal of women/feminine stereotypes on Ru Paul's Drag Race

Again, avoiding confronting the issue of the use of misogynistic and demeaning language; trying to present drag as a culture which celebrates women, rather than demeans them....etc

Obviously this is in an inadequate response -even if quite thorough......so the only recourse is for continued complaints going forward. If drag is to be presented in such mainstream ways then the producers must certainly expect further, criticism analysis and discussion. This is not going to be brushed under a carpet......

^Thank you for your email to the Executive Complaints Unit, in which you raised yourconcerns about the above programme. You feel it was “ugly and offensive” and containedwords and imagery used to demean women.As you may know, this unit considers complaints that material broadcast or published bythe BBC has failed to meet its editorial standards. The relevant Editorial Guidelines are
those on Harm and Offence and Portrayal. These say that content may reflect but shouldnot perpetuate the prejudice which exists in our society.I am sorry you were offended by the programme and felt it was demeaning and offensive to women and displayed misogyny. I appreciate you want a response which answers the
specific points you have made. However, as you do not cite particular episodes, but the show generally, I can only respond in similarly general terms^

^You use the example of The Black and White Minstrel Show to make the pointappropriation of this kind is inappropriate and say “much of” drag is equally offensive. Sexand race are both protected characteristics. It does not however follow the sensitivities
attaching to portrayal are exactly the same. Gender and ethnicity are not preciselyinterchangeable, and nor are other protected characteristics like age, disability, or religious belief. In all cases any review of the offence attaching to portrayal must consider
a wide range of factors, including the nature of the prejudice and discrimination a group has experienced, and from whom.
On male privilege, you refer to “the imitation and mockery of a less powerful group, by a more powerful group”. However, as you know, drag is a tradition emerging from, and most commonly associated with, gay culture. That is not to say that one oppressed group may
not oppress or unfairly caricature another (and as you say, sexuality does not remove all male privilege), but it does not support the comparison you offer between minstrelsy and drag^

The former was a form of entertainment intended to ridicule people of colour bypresenting crude caricatures of their supposed inferiority. By contrast drag – as explored in RuPaul’s Drag Race UK - largely concerns people engaged in performances which are celebratory, or which offer homage to images of women

2
^These may satirise gender conformity or play with traditional ideas of femininity and masculinity, but they are not in my view typically targeting a particular group and offering a prejudiced portrayal of them. A primary focus of Drag Race is how such performances
may empower contestants, who have often felt themselves to be “outsiders”, and who may have experienced prejudice and disadvantage themselves on the basis of their sexual orientation or not conforming to gender archetypes^

^Writer Matt Baume put it that this distinction was to do with the nature of the portrayal, and the individual performer’s relationship with gender: Drag isn’t actually an attempt to portray women in the way that blackface was a racist portrayal of African Americans. Blackface is a lie about a minority group, and drag is an exploration of gender.
And more importantly, drag queens are performing an aspect of themselves. When a man puts on a wig and heels, he’s experimenting with his own relationship to “boyness” and“girlness.” In contrast, a blackface performer isn’t expressing the fluidity of his race. He's
just creating a false depiction of someone else^

I think it is well understood that drag of the kind shown in the programme is not solely concerned with efforts to literally present as a woman, but reflects ideas and archetypes specific to the drag world, which are now well established and which go beyond merely
caricaturing women (I note RuPaul has said “I do not dress like a woman. I dress like a drag queen!”)^

It would of course be perfectly possible for drag performances to be misogynistic in nature– just as they may be racist, homophobic, or transphobic. However, I do not believe this is by definition an integral and unavoidable outcome of drag, and I could not identify
material in the episodes of the programmes I watched which would in my view have “perpetuated prejudice” against women. You point to the use of words which may be used to “demean women in real life” – the extent to which these would breach the guidelines would have to be considered in the context of how they were actually used here. In theepisodes I watched any mockery was of the performer, rather than a generalised attack on women of the kind the guidelines seek to guard against^

^I hope this explains why I don’t feel able to uphold your complaint. There is no provision for further appeal against this decision within the BBC. However, it’s open to you to approach the BBC’s regulator, Ofcom. You can find details of how to contact Ofcom and
the procedures it will apply here. Alternatively, you can write to Ofcom, Riverside House^
2a Southwark Bridge Road, London SE1 9HA, or telephone either 0300 123 3333 or 020
7981 3040. Ofcom acknowledges all complaints received, but will not normally write back
to individual complainants with the outcome of its considerations.
Yours sincerely

Richard Hut
Complaints Director

Notmyrealname855 · 07/02/2020 14:25

Well there are drag queens and drag kings... the drag Shows I go to are about sending up gender norms. Saw a good skit recently sending up toxic masculinity. If I saw an act disparaging women I’d complain. Depends on what you’ve seen though - have you watched Drag Race UK (and US and AllStars)? You’d need to watch the UK one to know what to complain about surely?

Ps RuPaul is really skilled at PR so wouldn’t be surprised if he managed to get top billing on the Beeb’s sites.

Justhadathought · 07/02/2020 14:58

You’d need to watch the UK one to know what to complain about surely

Well, quite obviously that is what my complaint related to......please rest of thread.

Justhadathought · 07/02/2020 14:59

please read rest of thread

I haven't spent weeks and time and energy engaging with the content of something I've not watched. And the complaints won't cease, either.....should it be shown again on BBC and the same insulting language and inferences used and made.

EverardDigby · 07/02/2020 15:22

Basically a bloke justifying why women shouldn't find it offensive then 🙄

Justhadathought · 07/02/2020 15:39

Basically a bloke justifying why women shouldn't find it offensive then 🙄

Well, yes.......in other circumstances it is the offended group who get to name & define their oppression. the logical inconsistencies in the arguments and comparisons are plain to see. This one is going to run and run.......so they had better come up with some more well thought through arguments.

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