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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

John Lewis

377 replies

sybilshade · 15/11/2019 18:03

fallen
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John Lewis
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CeridwenTheWitch · 15/11/2019 20:33

Quite. Just as we have underground secret lesbian groups and underground secret women's groups, we can now have secret underground bra fitters and an underground railroad of small businesses selling clothes with male free changing rooms

Someone has to meet the needs of females being excluded by all women's provision now forcibly revolving around the needs of people born male.

Yes exactly. To be honest I've been wondering for a while whether we'll just have to start again, like the Suffragettes and the 1970s feminists who created the domestic violence refuges. Trying to stop lesbians being lesbian is so homophobic, of course they are going to find a way to date other women, much like gay and lesbian men and women always have. These new laws and rules will just make people find more creative ways to live rather than be forced into participating in a society that is harmful to them.

One thing I'd love is a women only gym and swimming pool. I've had to leave my last three gyms because of the behaviour of men in the pool and jacuzzi/steam room areas. In the last place, they redesigned the whole building to suit men. I thought maybe I was imagining it until I spoke to a local yoga teacher who said she'd had loads of women had to leave that gym for the same reason. So now I'm without anywhere to exercise apart from walking. I've emailed my local gym/pool to ask if their changing rooms are single sex but they've not replied.

Akire · 15/11/2019 20:38

It does come to something that in the future it could have to be like something out of mission impossible. Go down street, take 5th left when you reach an old blue door with silver knocker. Tap out this pattern and the password is....

jamrollyolly · 15/11/2019 20:38

Sorry I've just realised that if I link to my local shop, that may bring her harm, so I won't link, but you get the idea.

OhHolyJesus · 15/11/2019 20:39

I'm not bothered about the clothes in JL and all these high street store changing room polices just send me further into supermarkets and charity shops, but now I shall boycott them for everything else and be encouraging others to do so also. You made your bed JL. (I do feel sorry for the staff the staff though.)

If the people who want this, the ones who want to use the changing rooms with how they identify, they'd better put their money where their mouth is as these business who are rejecting women are not going to do so well in the sales figures in the coming months...

CeridwenTheWitch · 15/11/2019 20:43

It does come to something that in the future it could have to be like something out of mission impossible. Go down street, take 5th left when you reach an old blue door with silver knocker. Tap out this pattern and the password is....

Yes, it is like we are returning to the Victorian era but with modern technology.

koshkat · 15/11/2019 20:44

One thing I'd love is a women only gym and swimming pool

Me too.

And JL/Waitrose can get to fuck. Hmm

EverardDigby · 15/11/2019 20:44

I've had to leave my last three gyms because of the behaviour of men in the pool and jacuzzi/steam room areas.

I find this unpleasant too, as a middle aged woman I think I’m invisible as 20 and 30 something blokes feel very comfortable talking about their girlfriends, wives, and other women in a pretty disrespectful and misogynist way, particularly in the sauna.

OhHolyJesus · 15/11/2019 20:52

I can recommend Rapanui for a eco/green option for pants anyway, sadly not bras, they delivery in brown envelopes, no plastic and are really good quality clothes (they also have a loop recycling option). I fear that this will drive us all online and many shops use excess packaging. I was already returning to the high street to reduce my plastic consumption...

I used to shop with H&M but they have the same changing room policy too. I've heard that Rigby and Pellar are women friendly but haven't confirmed this - I daren't book an appointment as I can't afford to shop there!

rapanuiclothing.com/collection/womens-accessories/

Maybe Ceridwen we will all be darning socks by the fire this Christmas and peeing at home in our 'gender neutral' bathrooms like Victorians!

CeridwenTheWitch · 15/11/2019 21:00

I find this unpleasant too, as a middle aged woman I think I’m invisible as 20 and 30 something blokes feel very comfortable talking about their girlfriends, wives, and other women in a pretty disrespectful and misogynist way, particularly in the sauna.

Usually when I went it was just loads of hairy blokes in the jacuzzi, sauna and steam room and no women so I felt really uncomfortable, like I'd walked into a place I shouldn't be (when in fact it was just my local, rather expensive gym in the middle of the day). In another local council run pool, I saw one man pleasuring himself in full view of everyone in the steam room area. It was vile.

I knew then and there, there was no way to be in these places with men present and feel (and be) safe and comfortable. But the gyms/pools don't seem to acknowledge this so all that happens is the facilities become pretty much men-only and all the women leave so they don't have to put up with it. Then everyone acts like women don't want to use the facilities so 'whats the problem' etc. When in fact, we very much would like to use the facilities, just not while there are men present.

(apologies for this being a bit of a thread derailment)

CeridwenTheWitch · 15/11/2019 21:04

Maybe Ceridwen we will all be darning socks by the fire this Christmas and peeing at home in our 'gender neutral' bathrooms like Victorians!

Lol indeed, that is pretty much how my Christmas is looking! Grin We may as well start making our own corsets and bonnets again so we can adjust to our newly allocated societal roles!

BercowsPoliticalPumpkin · 15/11/2019 21:12

Fucking hell, I love John Lewis and Waitrose and buy uniform and basics from
M&S. I've just put orders in with all 3 in the last week.

Soon there will be no where to shop just like there's no one to vote for.

I love the idea of a database of independents.

Ds was upset with me today because I refused to buy a biscuit for children in need. Explaining to a 4 yo why pudsey bear is not always kind to children isn't easy. People need to wake up to what goes on and who is being supported. Or rather who is being abused with all this wokeness.

My JL has women's and children wear on floor one and men's in the basement. I've only used the fitting rooms once. Curtains. I mainly go just to look at things now but do buy the occasional item from there. I give my mum the free coffee and cake vouchers I get every so often and browse whilst she enjoys it. Then I look on amazon to see if I can get the same thing cheaper.

My M&S have said to my face that men would not use the fitting rooms on the ladies side. Naiive perhaps but it's not very woke here.

Waitrose are partners with JL but do they share the same philosophy?

I was saddened to read of all the ocado shoppers on mumsnet despite the boycott.

It's fucking depressing.

Amelia1985x · 15/11/2019 21:25

Just typed a long post and lost it... arghhh... but basically, went into Primark today and all the changing rooms have been explicitly changed to mixed sex in order to be more inclusive.
I complained vociferously and was told that their customers welcomed the change as it made it easier for gender neutral and nonbinary people, and that if I (weirdo that I am) didn’t like it, I could use the disabled changing area, which has a lock - thereby blocking its use for a disabled person.

Michelleoftheresistance · 15/11/2019 21:29

it is like we are returning to the Victorian era

Tudor.

I was reading an historical novel this afternoon about a scholar panicking that he has books on Forbidden Subjects and if anyone finds out he's not only thinking really naughty thoughts like 'I don't really believe the King is suddenly divinely appointed just because he says so' but owning books about it he'll be arrested. And thought.... gosh this is familiar stuff.

Thomas Cromwell is alive and well and working for Stonewall.

Akire · 15/11/2019 21:31

I don’t think they are all like that. I used primark one last year before I knew and the disabled cubical was down a long corridor of smaller cubicals and around the corner. I had friend with me at the time, but pretty scary to be out of sight and not being able to tell if anyone was in the room before me. Anyone could have stepped In after me and as it was around the corner no one would have seen. Due to my Disability there’s not much I could have done about it either.

Was the Disabled one in a different place?

Michelleoftheresistance · 15/11/2019 21:32

their customers welcomed the change as it made it easier for gender neutral and nonbinary people

Which customers?

How were they surveyed? How many? What demographics?

And how many think it's a sweet idea in principle but have absolutely no idea of the actual realities?

Justhadathought · 15/11/2019 22:01

This is terrible - I love John Lewis!

The Liverpool branch of John Lewis has two discrete cubicles to the left of the entrance for their long standing customers who "like to be seen as women". Actual women are directed to the large bank of cubicles to the right. The service desk separates the two.

Justhadathought · 15/11/2019 22:03

Oh ffs. I've just cut up my M&S card and sent it back with a letter telling them why, told them I won't be using any of their services again, and now I have to do the same for JL and Waitrose?
This is chilling

Personally think that is a bit drastic........ I hate shopping, but love John Lewis. My experience based on asking about this issue is that it is quite discreetly handled.

Dangerfloof · 15/11/2019 22:16

The Liverpool branch of John Lewis has two discrete cubicles to the left of the entrance for their long standing customers who "like to be seen as women". Actual women are directed to the large bank of cubicles to the right. The service desk separates the two
If true, and you have no reason to lie, this will be considered transphobic and no longer be allowed. You cant "other" them.
Also I expect a pile on or the jl staff to now be "educated"

MartiniDry · 15/11/2019 22:20

" My experience based on asking about this issue is that it is quite discreetly handled."

Just how does one discreetly handle a man with a camera under the next door cubicle? How do the staff propose to discreetly handle the AGP in the next cubicle who's having a wank in women's clothing before he puts it back on the rails? How, I wonder, do they handle discreetly the aggressive "It's Ma'am!" types?
Did you ask them that?

SirVixofVixHall · 15/11/2019 22:21

“Discreetly handled” but what does that mean in reality ? It means that men are always allowed in if they “present as female” , a nonsense term- do I “present as male” when in trousers and a jumper ? It means that any man who just gets a sexual kick out of being in a dress in a female underwear changing room, and trying on big knickers, gets let in.
Depending on who is supervising, it may mean that anyone presenting in any way is allowed in, if they say the magic words “ I am a woman”.
There are several such men pretty active on twitter, complete with beards . Are they allowed in ? They are an aggressive bunch, is that who we want in our female spaces ?

This is terrible for women, and there really is no way around it other than keeping spaces single sex and supervising them properly, while also having a mixed sex space, which would also help women with a disability or or older women with dementia, who may rely on husbands and partners to help them try things on.

In the age of smart ‘phones and secret cameras, there is no way to keep women and girls save from voyeurs and fetishists in mixed sex spaces.

Jeanhatchet · 15/11/2019 22:24

And also either the shop floor manager lied to me last week or the "social media manager" hasn't had the same training.

John Lewis
mumsiedarlingrevolta · 15/11/2019 22:29

To be fair their customer service and inability to supply white goods has made me look elsewhere for years now.

A shocking state of affairs.

SirVixofVixHall · 15/11/2019 22:31

It was briefly cheering, the info you had from the floor manager last week jeanhatchet . Yet now this, oddly the same wording as Marks and Spencer.
I don’t get this “inclusive” as a catch-all good thing. Should we let adult men change in a children’s clothes shop if they present as children ?

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 15/11/2019 22:35

What does inappropriately look like? What if I'm on my way to my changing room and someone comes out of theirs and stands just a bit too close to me and asks me my opinion on what they are wearing? What if they haven't quite done it up properly?

Mere Tut Tutting, as recommended by Jolyon Hoity-Toity-Priviledge-Person is not the way to go. The appropriate ladylike response when one comes across a man acting inappropriately in the women's changing rooms is to scream. Open your throat, open your mouth, throw your head back and scream like a banshee. Scream until you run out of air, then suck down a quick breath and scream again. Keep on screaming until every customer in the entire shop knows something bad has been allowed to happen in the women's changing rooms.

Instead of being silent and ceding all our spaces, we need to articulate our deep distress in a way that is not easy to ignore.

So let's try shattering the carefully constructed ambience in those up market shopping emporiums with the loudest possible sounds of female distress. Alerting every woman in the shop to the potential danger, and ensuring that perving in the women's changing rooms carries an immediate penalty of shame.

The dismissive pronouncement that inappropriate behaviour will be dealt with after it has been committed is despicable. We all know that in most cases the offender will slip away, and their "appropriate action" will consist of phoning the police, who will arrive after a long delay, look at CCTV footage, take a statement, and phone a few days later to say they have made no progress and are closing the case.

Men making these policies find it all to easy to dismiss the concerns of women. How many of us have written to them, explaining in careful detail why sex segregated spaces, as permitted under UK equality law, are of vital importance to the comfort, safety, privacy and dignity of women? Their contempt for their female customers is so deep that they our pleas don’t register, except perhaps as a faint and distant bleating. We need to find ways of making it a lot harder for them to ignore us.

The loudest female scream was recorded at 129 dB, which should drown out the Christmas muzak. Once traumatised women up and down the country take to proclaiming their extreme distress at ear splitting levels it will become much harder to pretend that women don't really mind by being forced to share intimate spaces with predatory males.

I wonder how many incidents of women vocalising their trauma in defiled changing rooms would be needed before it became less bothersome to return to properly sex segregated changing areas? There is no reason at all that gender neutral changing rooms can't also be provided to avoid excluding those whose gender identity differs from their birth sex. True inclusivity does not dismiss the sex based rights of women!

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 15/11/2019 22:36

Oh FFS I feel even more let down than I did by M&S.

Why? The much needed turnaround isn't going to come from transactivists. These companies need actual women to spend money.